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3103 lines
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3103 lines
174 KiB
Plaintext
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"body": "From AI WP 227:\r\n\r\nCool Booting\r\n\r\n- Ensure disks are mounted.\r\n- Make sure ENABLE switch is pushed in.\r\n- Push the DISK button. Get `DECSYSTEM10 DIAGNOSTIC CONSOLE`\r\n- Type `RP0`.\r\n- Type `J KLINIT`\r\n- ...\r\n- Type `J NTSDDT`\r\n- Reload the IO-11 by typing `$L .; BOOT11`, then `$G`.\r\n- Type `$L .; ITS` and `$G`\r\n"
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"body": "KLDCP; FEDUMP 10 is a standalone program which does something with the frontend file system."
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"body": "That went fine. So is it the software, or is there a problem with machines that are too fast?"
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"created_at": "2018-03-20T10:40:56Z",
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"body": "Random thought. Maybe some interrupt gets lost on the PDP-10 side if the time between them is too short."
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"body": "From its-lovers:\r\n> I wrote a software device which kill processes or process trees on the system. The nice thing was that it would also work over the net, because the remote-filesystem did something like strip off the first two characters of the device name as the machine name, or something like that. So you could open this file remotely from another machine, and kill a particular job, or a particular person's tree.\r\n> \r\n> The intent was far more utilitarian than hack or prank. Sometimes all the telnet ports would be filled up, and you'd need to kill an idle tree (possibly your own), but couldn't connect to do so. Or network randoms (e.g. guests) would be causing various forms of trouble; it could kill their telnet server and make it look like their connection dropped, which was often more effective at discouraging certain people who would take a more direct action as a challenge.\r\n> \r\n> A log file was kept to discourage frivolous or malicious usage.\r\n> \r\n> This feature was not documented, of course.\r\n"
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"body": "Note above that NTSDDT is loaded, which then can read files from disk. So there's no DSKDMP.\r\n\r\nDavid Moon posted this to ITS-LOVERS about cold booting ITS:\r\n> The procedure varied depending on the type of machine. You're probably most interested in the KS10 procedure, but that's the one I remember least well. In general, if starting from a totally cold machine but with good disk contents, one loaded a bootstrap from paper tape, magnetic tape, or disk depending on the type of machine (using read-in mode on a KA) [on a pdp-6 the bootstrap actually had to be keyed in from switches in the unlikely event that it had been wiped out of core memory]. The bootstrap loaded microcode (if a microcoded machine), then loaded a non-timesharing program (DSKDMP on some machines, exec DDT with file system capability on others), which could then be used to load an SBLK file containing a core image of ITS, SALV, and NTSDDT (exec DDT). Starting that program ($G in exec DDT, otherwise just pressing return) would run SALV to verify and repair the file system, then start ITS. If one didn't want to run time sharing one went into exec DDT first and patched one or two locations to control what should happen when ITS came up. You never start ITS without running SALV first, since it only takes a minute or less due to the small, compact, and simple file system (which I did NOT write in a weekend or any other length of time).\r\n\r\nNote \"exec DDT with file system capability\"."
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"body": "ML and DM:\r\n\r\nLeonard H. Tower wrote:\r\n> Noel Chappa wrote:\r\n> > They were in the basement of 545 TS, in a random storage room that MIT owned, for a while. I seem to recall that at some later point, when they needed the space, they were taken out and moved somewhere else (not sure whether it was off-site storage, or the scrap bin).\r\n> \r\n> Too many years ago, I saw several racks of DM including the front panel at the old MIT Surplus Property Depot out on the west end of Albany Street. I remember my amazement that it was there, and hadn't been salvaged for a better fate. Don't know what happened to DM after that.\r\n"
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"body": "Hello @dpeschel,\r\n\r\nJust the other day in 2001, you asked about the ITS display system. Maybe you can find some answers in comments to this issue."
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"body": "Ed Schwalenberg: \r\n> The niftiest feature of the ITS/Knight system were the run-bars at the bottom of the screen: a \"bar\" 32 bits wide by one bit tall lit up when your job was actually running, and another one lit up when the system was busy fetching pages from the swap area in order to run your job. "
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"body": "> There's a processor test suite that runs under timesharing in the MAINT; directory. It only tests KA10 instructions\r\n"
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"body": "How about this for moving forward from here?\r\n\r\nLet's commit this, with the addition to build Macsyma optionally. For running in Travis, this option is off. For building manually, it's on. This way, Travis can build with both SIMH and KLH10. (And maybe even KA10.) Oh wait, we can built Macsyma with just SIMH to have it tested."
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"body": "Comments in KLH10 Makefiles suggest asynchronous real-time signals doesn't work well in Linux. So that's also a concert. I tried building with those off, but got a timeout in Emacs. Maybe that's an improvement, and the Emacs thing is a different problem.\r\n\r\nI'm feeling a bit exhausted about this and other problems. I don't see a short-term solution."
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"body": "I'm working on this. If the environment variable MACSYMA is set to `no`, Macsyma won't be built."
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"body": "> On Mar 5, 2018, at 9:00 AM, Lars Brinkhoff <notifications@github.com> wrote:\n> Maybe Knight TV?\n> \n> http://projects.csail.mit.edu/video/history/aifilms/x05-graphics.mp4 <http://projects.csail.mit.edu/video/history/aifilms/x05-graphics.mp4>\nNo, not green and higher res, maybe a Symbolics 36xx console.\n\n\t\tPeace\n\t\t\t—Devon\n\nP.S. BKPH = Berthold P. K. Horn"
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"body": "Doesn’t look like a 3600, or for that matter CADR display — no modeline. Any year on the video?"
|
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"body": "Or run lights for that matter..."
|
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"body": "There. Now all three emulators can be used, and Macsyma is built with SIMH. Are you ok with this, @eswenson1?\r\n\r\nBuild time for KA10 is 42 minutes. I tried to move the env(MACSYMA) check further up, but something broke. Unless you can suggest something, this is good enough for now."
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"body": "Ed Schwalenberg says there are Knight TV screenshots on page WP-5 here: \r\nhttps://archive.org/details/seyboldreportonw00medi"
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"body": "Or maybe make the DIR device handle this. I tried ^O DIR: EMACS1; SECOND COMPRS, but it said WRONG TYPE DEVICE."
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"body": "Running :LISP SCHEME (INIT) loads the FASL files and displays the Scheme ==> prompt. Maybe it should be dumped to a TS file?"
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"body": "This resolves half of #524."
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"body": "It's in the 1990 dump, so I think the connection to Public ITS is coincidental."
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"body": "Note: don’t delete Macsyma UNFASL files. These are actually used. They are sentinels for what must be built in the Macsyma build system. It makes updating Macsyma a bear, because if you delete them all, and change one source you have to recompile all of them (that don’t have UNFASL files). Also, the in and our core message file creation relies on them."
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"body": "> On Mar 22, 2018, at 3:07 PM, Lars Brinkhoff <notifications@github.com> wrote:\n> Ed Schwalenberg says there are Knight TV screenshots on page WP-5 here:\n> https://archive.org/details/seyboldreportonw00medi <https://archive.org/details/seyboldreportonw00medi>Snoopy dazed\nSnoopy cursing the Red Baron\nDragon\nUnicorn\nTortoise\nWumpus\n\n\t\tPeace\n\t\t\t—Devon\n\nP.S. All familiar to KTV users — hope I find those bitmaps...\n$200/MONTH in 1978 dollars, lol!\n\nP.P.S. Anyone attending https://LibrePlanet.org/2018/program?\n"
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"body": "Well, here's the dragon, but it's not a bitmap: \r\nhttp://up.update.uu.se/DSK%3A-PICS-%3BDRAGON%20SVG\r\n\r\nAnd here's the wumpus: \r\nhttp://up.update.uu.se/DSK%3A-PICS-%3BWUMPUS%20SVG"
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"body": "About the x05-graphics video, I wrote to BKPH to ask if it was a Knight TV or Lisp machine. He answered:\r\n> I'm pretty sure it was a Knight TV, since I wrote most of that code on the PDP10. We were fascinated by the continuously refreshed raster display (compared to the old DEC display on the PDP10), and the time sharing ability of these new displays (before, there was only one display, and we had to sign up for all kinds of ungodly hours to get to use it).\r\n"
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"body": "It's also responsible for making an image which is displayed on all free Knight displays."
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"body": "> On Mar 23, 2018, at 11:21 AM, Lars Brinkhoff <notifications@github.com> wrote:\n> About the x05-graphics video, I wrote to BKPH to ask if it was a Knight TV or Lisp machine. He answered:\n> \n> I'm pretty sure it was a Knight TV, since I wrote most of that code on the PDP10. We were fascinated by the continuously refreshed raster display (compared to the old DEC display on the PDP10), and the time sharing ability of these new displays (before, there was only one display, and we had to sign up for all kinds of ungodly hours to get to use it).\n> \nI suppose it could have been a monochrome video of a green KTV screen,\nto my eye that display has more pixels than the KTV but it’s been decades.\n\n\t\tPeace\n\t\t\t--Devon"
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"body": "RFC523\r\n> The purpose of this message is to inform the network community that the survey program at MIT-DMCG computer system is in operation now."
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"body": "There's a screenshot on page WP-5: \r\nhttps://archive.org/details/seyboldreportonw00medi"
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"body": "Oh, the program makes a connection to MIT-DMS (Arpanet host 106) to get the information."
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"body": "Yes, those are monochrome videos.\r\n\r\nHere's what Ed Schwaleberg thinks:\r\n> The clues that tell me it's a Knight TV are:\r\n> 1. BKPH is Berthold Horn.\r\n> 2. The resolution is about right. 576x454 or so. No gray scale.\r\n> 3. The rapid flipping from white-on-black to black-on-white was a keyboard\r\n> command: Escape-C for complement. (Escape was a separate key, not related to\r\n> ASCII ESC which we called \"alt\" and was shown on screen as a diamond.)\r\n> 4. In later scenes you can see the status line at the bottom of the screen.\r\n> 5. Most of the moire pictures are the result of drawing in XOR mode. That's\r\n> another feature of Knight TVs: they had an ALU between the computer and the\r\n> display memory, so you could OR, XOR or AND in new data.\r\n"
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"body": "https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc530.pdf"
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"body": "At 4m48, once the display fills up with text and starts to scroll, you can count 37 lines, which also matches the Knight TV resolution above. It certainly would be nice to have a higher-resolution version of this where we could actually read the text (is that a PEEK display at 9m30?)...\r\n\r\nAre there any other videos of someone interacting with an ITS machine?"
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"body": "I think this is the only other ITS video. A directory listing is briefly visible a few seonds in. \r\nhttp://projects.csail.mit.edu/video/history/aifilms/96-worm.mp4\r\n\r\nThere are a few with the PDP-6 showcasing chess, SHRDLU, and Mathlab. But there's no evidence of timesharing."
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"body": "I don't think all of these are done yet."
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"body": "@ams and @hrlzm, if you use the documentation in this repository, is there anything unclear about building, booting, or using ITS?"
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"body": "Move some details from toplevel README to doc/build.md.\r\n\r\nAdd more details to build.md."
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"author_association": "MEMBER",
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"body": "Add more information about prerequisite software for building. E.g. GitLab CI needs more packages installed than Travis CI."
|
||
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"body": "There is now a DMCG (DynaMod) document describing the format: \r\nhttps://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/its-archives/blob/master/dmcg/SYS.03.02.pdf"
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"body": "The format is a sequence of blocks. Each block has a header word, data, and a checksum word.\r\n\r\nThe header word bits:\r\n- 4.9 EOF. If set, ignore block.\r\n- 4.8-4.6 LCB, loader contitional bits.\r\n- 4.5-3.8 Block type.\r\n- 3.7-3.1 Number of data words.\r\n- 2-1-1.1 Address.\r\n\r\nThe checksum is a one's complement sum of the header word and the data.\r\n\r\nBlock types:\r\n- 1 - Loader command\r\n- 2 - Code to be loaded at address (not relocated)\r\n- 3 - Code to be loaded at address (relocated)\r\n- 4 - Program name.\r\n- 5 - Library search.\r\n- 6 - COMMON (Fortran).\r\n- 7 - Global parameter assignment.\r\n- 10 - Local symbols.\r\n- 11 - Load time conditional.\r\n- 12 - End load time conditional.\r\n- 13 - Local symbols to be half-kiled.\r\n- 14 - End of program, for libraries.\r\n- 15 - Entries.\r\n- 16 - External references.\r\n- 17 - Load if needed.\r\n- 20 - Global symbols.\r\n- 21 - Fixups.\r\n- 22 - Polish fixups."
|
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||
"body": "- There are now built image files:\r\n https://gitlab.com/PDP-10/its/builds/artifacts/master/browse/out?job=job1"
|
||
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||
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|
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"body": "@atsampson, I see you reconstructed this. Yes, it would be good to keep the original file as a separate version."
|
||
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"body": "I have now built NSCHSY using the previously installed SCHMAC from #746.\r\n\r\nThen I loaded RABBIT and used that to compile itself."
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"body": "Yet another question where to place files.\r\n\r\n- SCHMAC and friends were in NSCHEM in 1990. However, they were moved there from MC: QUUX; in 1989.\r\n- NSCHSY wants to load SCHMAC from QUUX.\r\n- NSCHSY was in OSCHEM in 1990, but in SCHEME earlier.\r\n- NSCHSY wants to dump to the SCHEME directory.\r\n- RABBIT INFO says RABBIT was in MC: QUUX; but copied to AI: SCHEME;"
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"body": "Some files mention CXFASL. I don't know what that is."
|
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|
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|
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"body": "The compiled file RABBIT LISP has this form:\r\n\r\n (DECLARE (MACROS T) (NEWIO T))\r\n\r\nWhen encountering this, COMPLR says:\r\n\r\n ;NEWIO UNDEFINED FUNCTION OBJECT\r\n\r\n@eswenson1, do I need to load something for this declaration to work?"
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"author_association": "MEMBER",
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"body": "Unfortunately, compiling RABBIT takes 10-15 minutes which pushes us over the time limit."
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"body": "MAINT; PART A etc seems to be the KLAD diagnostics.\r\n\r\nMAINT; PDP6 1 to 5 is the PDP-6 diagnostics."
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"created_at": "2018-03-26T11:57:22Z",
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"body": "Thanks!\r\n\r\nYou can merge this yourself when the build is done. In the spirit of the original ITS, everyone in the PDP-10 group can write to this repository."
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"body": "I should probably use DUMPIT somehow to write out a TS RABBIT."
|
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"body": "I’ve been commenting out instances of (NEWIO T) in DECLARE special forms. The current lisp compiler doesn’t accept it any more. I suspect that this was required in Lisps that predated the introduction of NEWIO or at least when this feature was an option. Now it is builtin/standard. For some reason it is rejected now. In any case, just commenting it out allows the code to be compiled. The result runs fine, as far as I’ve been able to tell.\n\n-- Eric\n\n"
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"body": "I considered it, but I didn't want to add more workarounds at this point."
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"body": "But that means that building ITS won't actually get the scheme compiler built, and therefore claiming that the ticket is \"fixed\" is misleading! :-)"
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"body": "Sure, it's a known defect!"
|
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"body": "Ok, then I'm sure you'll enter a ticket for it (or not close this ticket), right? "
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"body": "Workarounds so far:\r\n\r\n- Macsyma is not just built with SIMH in Travis CI, #714 \r\n- RABBIT is not built at all, #144 \r\n"
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"body": "What about breaking this up into several builds, where the output of one build is a usable ITS disk, and the output of others (which take the usable ITS disk as input) are tapes. Then, one final build that takes the usable disk (first build output) and all the tapes generated by the other builds and dumps out a new system that includes all the loaded tapes? Or something like that?"
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|
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|
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"body": "Yes, something like that.\r\n\r\nI have been thinking that some major applications could be split off:\r\n- Emacs\r\n- Maclisp\r\n- Macsyma\r\n- Rabbit (mostly because it takes a long time)\r\n- More?"
|
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|
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"body": "I think Emacs should be in the base. WIthout it, makes it pretty useless to use. (I ain't using teco!). \r\n\r\nDefinitely Macsyma, Scheme, rabbit, but also a ton of SYS: TS FOO programs that are obscure. \r\n\r\nPossibly MacLisp, or least some of the LSPLIB packages -- but lisp was pretty central to the raison d'etres of ITS. I guess we could do the entire lisp-related build separately -- but that would leave of INQUIR, since it requires lisp."
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|
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|
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"body": "I very much agree with you on using Emacs. It depends on how many pieces to split off. A very bare bones base could just be ITS and a few tools. Basically what's on the minsys tape. So this would only exist to facilitate quick building; it wouldn't be very usable by itself.\r\n\r\nNow, we wouldn't have to take it quite that far. And for convenience, there could be an option to load pre-built tapes at the end. This would restore the system to a more usable state. I think this could be a boon for development, not just build servers.\r\n\r\nI looked through the list of programs and didn't see anything else that stuck out. No single thing that takes a lot of time to build. But of course many small programs could be moved out in a chunk.\r\n\r\nThere's also the matter whether to keep everything in a single repository like now, or to create new repositories for the separately built units. I can think of a way to have one repo and make many separate jobs in Travis CI each with their own time limit, but it's not a great fit for what we want."
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"body": "Agreed, I checked everywhere I could think of, and didn't see it implemented.\r\n\r\nI also looked in ITS 768, but I searched for a 20. How can bit 3.5 be 10?"
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"body": "```\r\nScript used to load the VM:\r\n\r\n t\r\n (load '(s48/top t_load t))\r\n (load-s48)\r\n (scheme-reset)\r\n\r\nThen the system could be bootstrapped with:\r\n\r\n (load '(s48/top boot_macros scm))\r\n (init)\r\n (cold-load)\r\n (run-form '(write-image \"~temp/s48.image\"))\r\n\r\nor resumed with:\r\n\r\n (eval (resume \"~temp/s48.image\") s48-env)\r\n"
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"body": "Oh! There's a ROT D,-1. Carry on."
|
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|
||
"body": "@aap tried this recently, with discouraging results."
|
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"body": "I see TS QUOTE is built from LIMERI. Is the limeric data file missing?"
|
||
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|
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"body": "I have made some progress. From XXFILE disassembly, I have recreated a UUOS which can be used to assemble XXFILE. I haven't verified it against the original binary yet. The binary and source version of XXFILE doesn't match, so that's a complication.\r\n\r\nNext, we'll need a reconstructed INP."
|
||
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|
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"body": "@eswenson1,\r\n\r\nI see LIBLSP; FFORMA FASL is now built from LIBDOC; FFORMA >, and LIBLSP; FORMAT FASL is a link to FFORMAT FASL.\r\n\r\nIs this something else?"
|
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"body": "Fixed in #144."
|
||
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|
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"body": "@eswenson1, I recall we discussed the difference between LISP and MACLIS. But I don't remember if ASSLIS was involved?"
|
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|
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"body": "-READ- -THIS- says the files in LSPMAN is the Pitmanual, and that the files in the archives are the presumably older manual which should be the Moonual.\r\n\r\nNote that Kent Pitman has asked that the Pitmanual should not be distributed. He has the latest version online at http://maclisp.info/"
|
||
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"created_at": "2018-03-27T12:03:41Z",
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"updated_at": "2018-03-27T12:03:41Z",
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"author_association": "MEMBER",
|
||
"body": "It just hung at building macsyma i think. Or maybe i didn't wait long enough...I could try again today."
|
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|
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|
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"author_association": "MEMBER",
|
||
"body": "Uses MLDEV to do a file listing of TTY: on another machine."
|
||
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|
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|
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"body": "Command set:\r\n\r\n```\r\nCMDHLP: [ASCIZ\\DELETE A FRONT-END FILE\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\LIST FRONT-END FILES THAT MATCH *-NAME\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\DUMP FRONT-END FILES THAT MATCH *-NAME ONTO MAG TAPE\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\LOAD A MAG TAPE OF FRONT-END FILES\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\:KILL KLFEDR\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\READ A FRONT-END FILE INTO ITS FILE OF SAME NAME\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\RENAME A FRONT-END FILE\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\REWIND TAPE\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\LIST FILES ON FRONT-END TAPE\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\READ A FILE FROM FRONT-END TAPE INTO ITS FILE OF SAME NAME\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\WRITE AN ITS FILE INTO A FRONT-END FILE OF SAME NAME\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\ACCESS A FAKE FRONT-END FILE SYSTEM IN ANOTHER DIRECTORY\\]\r\n [ASCIZ\\EXECUTE COMMAND FILE\\]\r\n"
|
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|
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|
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"body": "Indeed there was a KL frontend file system tool: KLFEDR, #771.\r\n\r\nAnd a .KLFE. directory related to this file system. It contains KLDCP, KLINIT, NTSDDT, microcode, etc."
|
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"body": "Why are these PRs saying they were opened about a year ago?"
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"body": "Very nice. The lack of TAA; UUOS > has been bugging me and I was tempted to do what you did to reconstruct it. How tough do you think INP is?"
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"body": "Do we know what the file name is?"
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"author_association": "MEMBER",
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"body": "Because I'm reusing the old issues rather than opening new pull requests."
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||
"author_association": "MEMBER",
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"body": "How do you do that? I thought you had to create PRs for any new merges to master from changed non-master branches."
|
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"created_at": "2018-03-27T15:38:14Z",
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"author_association": "MEMBER",
|
||
"body": "I haven't checked yet. I have a vague sense it shouldn't be too hard.\r\n\r\nIf we need to do much more of these reconstructions, I should fix my disassembler to use the symbol table when writing the instructions."
|
||
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"body": "There is an API to convert an issue into a pull request. I have a shell script to do that in my git-scripts repository: \r\nhttps://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/git-scripts/blob/master/git-hub#L54-L81"
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