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Lars Brinkhoff 7891748263 Update saved GitHub data.
2018-06-07 17:44:24 +02:00

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"body": "I took a look at the argument passed to .DSTART. It's DLVIS, which points to a word which points to a BLKO pointer with three words. These words are the display list. But it doesn't resemble the DATAOs to the display.\r\n\r\n```\r\nDLVIS/ DLPP,,0\r\nDLPP/ -3,,PPBLK-1\r\nPPBLK/ 001160,,200000\r\nPPBLK+1/ 201777,,333436\r\nPPBLK+2/ 373737,,000000"
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"body": "@philbudne, The value of E at SRCY2B is 15 (octal).\r\n\r\nThis is the very first call to .DSTART so the screen is empty, and there shouldn't be a long display list.\r\n\r\nI looked more closely at how ITS reads the .DSTART data. It seems the value of the DLPP symbols is negative, which doesn't work as intended. Negative words are interpreted as BLKO pointers, but it looks like DLVIS should contain a linked list."
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"body": "Actually, all of DECUUO lives in high address space, so I don't know how this could work at all. Maybe some bitrot has set in."
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"created_at": "2018-04-08T06:12:45Z",
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"body": "I have the source for NGAME, have assembled and patched it to get it to run. I'm locating all the games that were accessible from this frontend and once I have them and can build them (or provide binaries) I'll commit NGAME and related files. I've successfully played a bunch of the games but there are few still missing. "
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"body": "Thanks! I'll take a look at this later today.\r\n\r\nSomething to consider, though. Sometimes it's possible to dig around and eventually find the original ITS file. So if you're in a hurry to assemble a source file go ahead and reconstruct it. If not, you may hold of a while and see it it pops up."
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"body": "I'm just going to take this opportunity to bring up something that's been discussed lightly before.\r\n\r\nIt's the matter of binary patching versus source patching. I vaguely recall having advocated updating the source code rather than adding binary patches in the build script. Just a minor point, though."
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"body": "I sampled the PC a few times and got 773175, 773207, 773177, 773271, 773213, 773202."
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"created_at": "2018-04-08T08:56:17Z",
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"body": "Looks like we're in IN, calling DISCFT and entering DPYSWP."
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"body": "Yep, if the real source shows up later then all the better - it should be possible to drop it in directly, although I guess we'll need to check that the case-insensitivity changes have actually been made in the source. I'm interested in how early games like this were exchanged between institutions so I don't mind doing a bit of duplicate detective work.\r\n\r\nWe could simplify the build process by having BEG0 read a single filename string, and open it using the SOPEN call (and fix the missing TTY open at the same time). I'm happy to implement that but I'll give it a few days in case the original source turns up in the NGAME stuff EJS is looking at."
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"created_at": "2018-04-08T18:40:10Z",
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"body": "That's great! If there's anything I can help with then please let me know."
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"body": "> Maybe some bitrot has set in.\n\nI'd be surprised if no bitrot had happend!\n"
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"body": "IN does this:\r\n\r\n CONSO TTY,40\r\n PUSHJ P,DISCFT\r\n\r\nDISCFT starts off doing SOS (P) twice, so when it returns it goes back to the CONSO... or so you'd think. But somehow it goes back to TYO3, which does\r\n\r\n CONSZ TTY,20\r\n PUSHJ P,DISCFT\r\n\r\nAnd the next time DISCFT returns, we're back to the CONSO in IN again."
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"created_at": "2018-04-09T06:25:38Z",
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"body": "Some random thoughts, not to be taken too seriously:\r\n\r\n- It would be possible to temporarily mount a DECtape when JOTTO is built. (An actual use case for DEtape!)\r\n- But since we entered the 70ies some time ago, it makes sense to read from disk.\r\n- Why SOPEN instead of OPEN? I believe SOPEN exists for the \"long filenames\" feature. To pass a file name string in a byte pointer? There's a library for parsing file names.\r\n- Old slow hardware may still exist, and new slow hardware is being built. :-)\r\n"
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"created_at": "2018-04-09T11:10:45Z",
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"body": "This also requires the PI channel 1 multiplexing feature. At least if you want to use magtape and DECtape at the same time."
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"created_at": "2018-04-09T11:12:52Z",
"updated_at": "2018-04-09T11:23:23Z",
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"body": "What is PI channel 1 multiplexing, you ask?\r\n\r\nShort version: PI channel 1 interrupts normally go to location 42. MIT modified their KA10s to have some additional I/O bus wire(s) to make channel 1 interrupts go to locations in the range 62-76.\r\n\r\nDevices that make use of this are: IMP (pseudochannels 4 and 5), DECtape (pseudochannel 6), and TM10A (pseudochannel 7)."
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"created_at": "2018-04-09T12:10:48Z",
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"body": "Actually, for a KA10 dual-processor system (in master/slave mode) the second (slave)\r\nprocessor would use 62-77 for its interrupts. The mod in question would have been\r\nfairly simple to do.\r\n"
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"created_at": "2018-04-09T16:54:00Z",
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"body": "@atsampson, is this any good? \r\nhttps://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/chess/book.moves"
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"body": "@atsampson, see this: \r\nhttps://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/rz/factor.26"
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"created_at": "2018-04-09T19:43:07Z",
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"body": "Neat! Comparing the two, that's definitely a later version of the same program - it uses a lookup table for the keys (including lowercase entries) rather than lots of individual tests, it uses .CALL OPEN rather than .SUSET and .OPEN, and it has a quit command. The maths code is identical.\r\n\r\nIs it possible that that code also started life as a disassembly? It flips between using numeric and symbolic names for the registers and IO channels...\r\n\r\nWas there an updated FACTOR ORDER with it, with the lowercase keys added? The QUERY code that provides help for a key is still case-sensitive."
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"created_at": "2018-04-09T19:49:04Z",
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"body": "Hmmm. I don't know if that's the right format, but it's probably not the actual book file - AIM-174 says \"The book contains over 5000 moves\", so 114 bytes is a bit short.\r\n\r\nOn the other hand, though, https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/muddle/book.4 looks like an openings book and has 6000-odd words in it..."
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"created_at": "2018-04-09T19:49:14Z",
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"body": "As far as I can see, the FACTOR ORDER we have is the latest version according to timestamps."
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"created_at": "2018-04-09T23:37:10Z",
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"body": "The change to put the TEST inner loop at 100 rather than in the registers looks wrong, looking at the binary it produces -- it does a TRC .+1,6, which can only work when .+1 is in the range 0-17, and an HRRI to the same location later. The code still works by chance, because the value in that location by default is 2, so it just ends up checking every odd number as a possible factor (and the TRC/HRRI overwrite A which doesn't matter).\r\n\r\nSo I wonder if that version never got installed, because the intention was to speed it up on the KL by running the inner loop from main memory rather than the registers, but it actually ended up being slower as it was testing more factors..."
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"created_at": "2018-04-10T00:06:24Z",
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"body": "The [CHM interview transcript with Greenblatt](http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/Greenblatt_Richard/greenblatt.oral_history_transcript.2005.102657935.pdf) (p26) talks a bit about the book data: \"This guy Larry Kaufman generated our opening book. And I had a thing that encoded the opening moves ... in a small amount of memory ... and it was compacted pretty efficiently\". So maybe book.4 is the input data for that?"
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"body": "That's an interesting observation. Note though, the multiplexed interrupts are all handled at priority 1."
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"body": "Still, 114 bytes would be extremely small for thousands of moves. Maybe book.moves is an early version with fewer moves. But it could be better than nothing.\r\n\r\nMaybe some time in the future we can find Greenblatt's thing and see if we can process book.4 with it."
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"body": "Sorry, it appears I diffed the wrong way. Supnik's version is from 1981, the other one from 1979."
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"created_at": "2018-04-10T07:35:55Z",
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"body": "I renamed Supnik's 1981 files (which all have a .mud file extension) to match the ones from 1979. I bumped the edited file version number by one which is probably historically incorrect, but better than having them unchanged."
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"created_at": "2018-04-10T08:10:39Z",
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"body": "Now, in order to use a bootstrap ITS without channel 1 multiplexing, I had to modify the build scripts a little. The bootstrap ITS uses a different simulator configuration from the one used to run the newly built ITS."
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"created_at": "2018-04-10T10:08:37Z",
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"body": "I'd like the bootstrap ITS (the binary in bin/ka10/_) to keep using TM10A to make sure it doesn't bit rot.\r\n\r\n#784 has paved the way for this."
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"created_at": "2018-04-10T16:24:13Z",
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"body": "This uses EAK; LIMS too, like #109."
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"created_at": "2018-04-10T16:25:31Z",
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"body": "@atsampson, join the cause for a KS10 scale model here!"
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"created_at": "2018-04-10T17:37:00Z",
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"body": "Hello @archivisth, \r\n\r\nThis is the pull request where I added the two Zork versions. The last commit will show the differences."
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"created_at": "2018-04-11T07:15:04Z",
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"body": "I checked against SYSTEM; INET 115 dated 1985-03-31. This version doesn't mention the KS10.\r\n\r\n```\r\n ; IMP-specific blocking stuff\r\n AND C,[<377_16.>+377] ; Mask out all but host and IMP field\r\n MOVE T,C ; Set up for FNDHST\r\n CALL FNDHST ; Get host index in H\r\n JRST IPGOQ5 ; If can't get index, treat as if blocked.\r\n JSP T,IMPBLI ; See if OK to send\r\n JRST IPGOQ5 ; Nope, blocked.\r\n JRST IPGOQ6 ; Won! Go clean up prior to return.\r\n```\r\n\r\nIn INET 130 (1987-12-07) this has been replaced by\r\n\r\n```\r\n ; IMP-specific!!!\r\n ; Ask interface if it wants this particular datagram right now.\r\n ;\r\n CALL IMPCTS\r\n JRST IPGOQ5 ; Can't send, requeue\r\n```\r\n\r\nAnd in IMP 363 (1987-11-26) we find this:\r\n\r\n```\r\n;See if IMP code is willing to handle a particular datagram right now.\r\n; A/ IP DGM pointer\r\n; C/ Immediate destination address\r\n; Returns +1, can't send right now, +2, OK to send\r\n;\r\nIMPCTS: MOVE T,C ;Set up for FNDHST\r\n AND T,[<377_16.>+377] ;Mask out all but host and IMP field\r\n CALL FNDHST ;Get host index in H\r\n POPJ P, ;No host entry, don't send\r\n JSP T,IMPBLI ;See if OK to send\r\n POPJ P, ;IMP wants to block, no send\r\n JRST POPJ1 ;Skip return if OK to send.\r\n```\r\n\r\nCuriously, this isn't in IMP 361 (1987-02-08)."
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"body": "Side note: IMP 347 from 1985-04-17 is very similar to IMPOLD WTHNCP.\r\n\r\nThe differences are that the older version uses IFN DMI / IFE DMI whereas the newer uses IFN DMIMP / IFN KAIMP, and the addition of an IMPCKR routine."
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"body": "The original binary was assembled for KL10==0, and this is now assembled with KL10==1, right?"
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"body": "Yes, in effect -- setting KL10==0 would produce the same inner loop code that AI's TS FACTOR binary had. (It just controls whether the code runs in the ACs or not; it doesn't use KL10-specific instructions or anything.)"
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"body": "I believe if you change the name of the symbol \"STEP\" to \"INCR\", you can do HRRI INCR,4 at line 373 for KL10 too. And then the only difference between the two versions of the inner loop is whether you do ADD or ADDI. Maybe you just need to IFN/IFE that instruction?\r\n\r\nNothing important, but these are the kind of tricks I'd expect in an ITS program. :-)"
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"created_at": "2018-04-11T09:54:47Z",
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"body": "Sounds reasonable - updated!"
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"created_at": "2018-04-11T16:57:15Z",
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"body": "I'm guessing UNFORT is like UNFASL."
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"created_at": "2018-04-11T17:02:37Z",
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"body": "Yes. It starts out like this:\r\n\r\n> ;;;\r\n;;; This is the UNFORT file for\r\n;;; [Fortran Source]: DSK:EJS;TREK 1\r\n;;; [Translated]: Sunday, September 24, 1978 21:18:04\r\n;;; Any Double Precision in source has been coerced\r\n;;; to Single Precision in translation.\r\n;;;\r\n\r\n> ;[Translator]: Warning encountered in translation of *NO-NAME*.\r\n; Parse Failure due to illegal expression.\r\n; \"IMPLICIT INTEGER(A-Z)\"\r\n; No FORTRAN keywords or equal sign found\r\n; in expression.\r\n\r\n> ;[Translator]: Warning encountered in translation of *NO-NAME*.\r\n; Parse error:\r\n;\r\n; DATA BNAME,PIE,DOCKED/'-1 ',3.1415926,'DOCKE'/\r\n; ^\r\n; Unable to parse this line.\r\n; Probable cause: Syntax error."
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"body": "EJS; MACTRK INFO just has instructions for playing the game. It ends with this:\r\n\r\n> That should get you stared. Good luck.\r\n\r\n> My thanks to all those people who have previously\r\n> written STARTREK games for a wealth of ideas, es-\r\n> pecially that unknown person who wrote the \"Wellsly\r\n> STARTREK\".\r\n\r\n> H. T. Hunt\r\n> 8/23/73\r\n> LIST OF COMMANDS\r\n\r\n> 1 - SET COURSE\r\n2 - SHORT RANGE SENSOR SCAN\r\n3 - LONG RANGE SENSOR SCAN\r\n4 - PHASERS\r\n5 - PHOTON TORPEDOES\r\n6 - TRACTOR BEAMS\r\n7 - WAIT OR TRAVEL\r\n8 - STATUS REPORT\r\n9 - DAMAGE CONTROL\r\n10 - EVASIVE MANEUVERS\r\n11 - EMERGENCY EVASIVE MANEUVERS\r\n12 - RAISE DEFLECTORS\r\n13 - DROP DEFLECTORS\r\n14 - OPEN COMMUNICATIONS\r\n15 - SHORT RANGE TRACK\r\n16 - GALACTIC UPDATE"
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"created_at": "2018-04-11T18:09:55Z",
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"body": "The plot thinkens! Who is Hunt, and Wellsly, is that a place?\r\n\r\nAlso, the date. Daglow's Star Trek is from 1972, would this be a descendant?"
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"created_at": "2018-04-11T18:12:06Z",
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"body": "Or the 1971 BASIC game?"
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"created_at": "2018-04-11T18:31:53Z",
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"body": "Also these: \r\nAF; \r\nBASKER; \r\nLMFONT; \r\nTEX; \r\nTEXFNT; \r\nXFONT; "
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"body": "I have checked in SUDS source code from ITS on a branch called lars/suds. The binaries are there too.\r\n\r\nI'm not going to try assembling and linking everything yet. If someone wants to give it a try, the files are there."
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"created_at": "2018-04-11T19:47:06Z",
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"body": "BAK; CHASE 78"
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"body": "The info file states this game is copyrighted. We can ask Kornfeld's permisson on linkedin or facebook."
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"body": "I wrote him through facebook."
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"body": "Great. Thanks. "
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"body": "Ok, I now have ngame able to run all games that I have installed, including the 448 point adventure, the 350 point adventure, and star trek. Now, I just need to get all the games built from source (if possible) or included as binaries in the build and then I'll commit ngame."
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"body": "I see the two chess programs in the list. I suppose the binaries shoud move from GAMES to BMT1.\r\n\r\nBy the way, who or what is BMT?"
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"body": "We're creeping ever closer to the limit.\r\n\r\nI think I'll just brutally disable building a large chunk of programs roughly in the middle of the script. It'll only affect Travis CI initially. New programs should be added outside this chunk.\r\n\r\nWith some luck, the reduced build will go through in Jenkins. If so, we can make it a two-stage thing where the base image is built first, and then the rest is built triggered by the first."
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"body": "CC @atsampson, since you're an active contributor and this affects adding new programs."
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"created_at": "2018-04-12T07:20:38Z",
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"body": "I'd like some input on which essential programs to keep, and what to drop.\r\n\r\nKeep:\r\n- ITS (monitor).\r\n- DDT.\r\n- MIDAS.\r\n- DUMP.\r\n- TECO.\r\n- Eric requested Emacs.\r\n- Most things in DEVICE and CHANNA?\r\n\r\nDrop\r\n- All games.\r\n- Macsyma.\r\n- Scheme, Rabbit.\r\n- C compiler.\r\n- DECUUO and dependants: FAIL, F40, etc.\r\n- COMSAT?\r\n\r\nIf we drop INQUIR, we wouldn't need Maclisp I think."
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"body": "INFO please. That is useful for documentation purposes."
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"created_at": "2018-04-12T10:21:57Z",
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"body": "And maybe one game for demo/fun purposes."
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"body": "Good point, but unfortunately we can't build INFO yet. See #18."
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"body": "I had a further look at this last night, based on @larsbrinkhoff's work; here's my updated code: https://github.com/PDP-10/muddle/tree/ats/its\r\n\r\nI've persuaded all the MIDAS files from the newer version to assemble with MIDAS 458. I've also fixed the included copy of STINK and tested that it works with a simple example. However, for any of the source files that .INSRTs MUDDLE >, loading the resulting REL into STINK fails:\r\n\r\n```\r\n*:stink\r\nSTINK.201\r\n\r\n*MEVAL$L$$\r\nbad format: symbol missing\r\nUndefined Global Assignment 6056 VECLOC\r\nUndefined Global Assignment 6056 SQULOC\r\nUndefined Global Assignment 6056 TVLOC\r\nUndefined Global Assignment 6056 VECTOP\r\nMultiply Defined Global 7 *7UV\r\nMultiply Defined Global 4 SQULOC\r\nMultiply Defined Global 2 *2IX\r\nMultiply Defined Global 4 TVLOC\r\nMultiply Defined Global 15 VECLOC\r\nUndefined Global Assignment 6056 VECTOP\r\nMultiply Defined Global 7 *7UV\r\nMultiply Defined Global 2 *2IX\r\nMultiply Defined Global 4 TVLOC\r\n[snip dozens of similar lines]\r\nbad format: symbol missing\r\nbad format: symbol undefined\r\nbad format: symbol missing\r\nbad format: symbol undefined\r\nbad format: symbol undefined\r\nNon-existent Memory\r\n```\r\n\r\nBoth STINK 201 and the included STINK fail in the same way; the former has more readable error messages. Loading a file that doesn't use MUDDLE >, e.g. CONST, seems to be fine.\r\n\r\nThe symbols it's complaining about seem to be those that are used in LOC constructs in MUDDLE >'s macros. I wonder if something's bitrotted in MIDAS's RELOCA support - perhaps an older version of MIDAS would be worth trying? Alternatively, could we persuade MIDAS to build it in one hit by constructing a file that includes all the other sources (removing the RELOCAs and adjusting the .INSRTs)?\r\n\r\nI've also done the same fixups for the 1973 version: https://github.com/PDP-10/muddle/tree/ats/its73\r\nBut this has exactly the same problem when loading the resulting files into STINK, and it looks like it's not complete; e.g. it's missing VCREAT (which is in the Twenex version) and DISPLY (which isn't).\r\n\r\nThere are two binaries in the 1973 version, TS MUDDLE and TS OMUDDL, neither of which seem to work right for simple examples. So even if we get it to link there may be more work ahead...\r\n\r\nIt looks like the source belongs in MUDSYS;, from the .INSRT in STINK."
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"body": "I suspect both MIDAS and STINK were slightly modified by the Dynamic Modeling group. See e.g. this:\r\n\r\nhttps://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/its-archives/blob/master/dmcg/SYS.03.02.pdf"
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"body": "The groups Lars suggests sound sensible; it'd be nice to be able to just build a subset of the software when you're testing something new locally.\r\n\r\nWatching a build in progress with klh10, the initial phase where the sources are unpacked with DUMP is CPU-bound, but after that it's only using a few percent of one host CPU core on average -- I guess because ITS is mostly waiting for build.tcl to type the next character at DDT, etc. So some ways we could potentially speed up the build:\r\n\r\n- Find a faster way of feeding input to DDT and the other tools, e.g. XXFILE (https://github.com/PDP-10/its/pull/160). Could we reduce the input delays in build.tcl for parts of the build process?\r\n\r\n- As Eric suggests above, modularise: build an initial base system with MIDAS etc., then clone the emulated disk image and run several emulated PDP-10s in parallel, each of which builds a group of software and dumps the results to tape. A final step loads all the tapes into the final system. (Probably not too hard to specify in make.)\r\n\r\n- Stick with one emulated PDP-10, but run multiple expect processes talking to different emulated terminal lines, so we can build multiple groups of software in parallel on it."
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"body": "I do think that XFILE/XXFILE would speed things up considerably. I started working on that, but ran into some problems. XFILE only supplies input to DDT, not the inferior processes. The inferiors often read from the TTY device; this input can sometimes be supplied with filename translations, but not always. Finally, XXFILE would be perfect to use for this, but I haven't been able to make it work. See #13."
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"created_at": "2018-04-12T13:54:10Z",
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"body": "Yes -- the copy of STINK in <mdl.int> has some DMCG/NODMCG conditionals which aren't in the standard version, although the DMCG stuff was disabled as found."
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"body": "In this first round of changes, I'm just looking to do something simple. Move a large chunk to a separate build script, and call that from the main build.tcl unless we're running from Travis.\r\n\r\nNote that there's a full build using KLH10 in GitLab, and another using SIMH in Eric's Jenkins."
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"created_at": "2018-04-12T14:21:38Z",
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"body": "Approved, merging."
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"created_at": "2018-04-12T14:32:13Z",
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"body": "From the manual for Daniel R. Strick's 1975 version on DECUS (http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib10-06/01/43,50363/strtrk.doc.html):\r\n\r\n> This program is upward compatible with the Yale Real Time Star Trek (H. T. Hunt, October 1973) and is designed to eliminate many of its less desirable features (erratic timing, difficult computations, etc.) without sacrificing the great challenge."
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"body": "I think networking and Comsat should stay. And emacs should stay. We’ll need it to fix attempts, using this base system, to build other components. I see no reason for games, info, or other programs not critical to helping build the rest of the system. For example, we should keep FIND, SRCCOM, PEEK, and other utilities like those. I don’t think the purpose of the base system should be any other than for bootstrapping the tape creation of all the rest of the code. It doesn’t have to have INFO or games. We can have a separate build create a tape of all the games, for example, if someone wants an ITS with only games."
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"created_at": "2018-04-12T14:53:16Z",
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"body": "BMT is Barry Michael Trager. I worked for him and Rich Zippel (RZ) at LCS on Macsyma. Both BMT and RZ are fraternity brothers of mine, as well. You can read about Rich and Barry’s contributions to Macsyma , I think, on Wikipedia."
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"created_at": "2018-04-12T17:14:02Z",
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"body": "Tried building everything with MIDAS 352; no difference. Although ATOMHK and MAIN use the XMOVEI instruction, which 352 doesn't know about, so that suggests they were built with a newer version...\r\n\r\n... but what version could have understood the errors in CONST 5, with duplicate TERMINs and one misspelled as TERMIM? The version history in AI:INFO;MIDAS ARCHIV says MIDAS 217 introduced stricter checking for TERMINs."
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"body": "@larsbrinkhoff Maybe we should recover all the versions of MIDAS that we can, and try them out to see if we can figure out which is the *right* version. It may well be, however, that there were local modifications of MIDAS on DM that are not captured in any of the MC or AI backup tapes. That would be a shame -- and surprising. "
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"body": "Eric, I did recover many versions. See the lars/midas branch. I have 108, 323, 352, 400, 412, 421, 433, 455. I think there are more, but it's a decent selection. There are also some TSRTNS versions."
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"body": "As an example, Muddle uses IFP. It's not defined anywhere, so I'm guessing it's a DynaMod MIDAS thing."
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"body": "Have we tried compiling muddle with all of these? Are there more versions to recover that might help? I'd like to think that DM-specific changes were merged with the other changes, but I guess it is possible that they had their own version...."
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"body": "I haven't. My suspicion is that it's not an older version that's needed.\r\n\r\nAnother example is use of expressions that are resolved at link time. I believe standard MIDAS and STINK only supports very simple expressions, whereas Muddle uses more complex. SYS.03.02 describes some of these additional linker features. I haven't cross checked in detail with MIDAS or STINK, though, so I could be wrong."
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"body": "I pushed some commits. I couldn't leave well enough alone, so I made a few separate scripts: emacs (not optional), lisp, scheme, misc (optional).\r\n\r\nI see CircleCI is putting a failed build status on everything. It's not as bad as it looks."
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"body": "I intend to squash these commit together later. For now I'll leave them in place for easier reviewing.\r\n\r\nBuild times are down to 10/15/30 minutes (SIMH/KLH10/KA10)."
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"body": "> Alternatively, could we persuade MIDAS to build it in one hit by constructing a file that includes all the other sources\r\n\r\nYes, that's an option I have considered.\r\n\r\n> It looks like the source belongs in MUDSYS;\r\n\r\nThanks, I didn't notice that. We only have tiny scraps of information from DM ITS. There's a backup listing with these files:\r\n\r\n```\r\nMUDSYS MAIN MCR317 18 1/27/77 17:59:27.5\r\nMUDSYS MAIN MCR318 18 1/28/77 10:10:21.5\r\nMUDSYS MAPPUR MCR185 18 1/31/77 13:59:58.5\r\n```\r\n\r\nWe recognize MAIN and MAPPUR. Apparently the DynaMod fn2 naming convention with XXXNNN has appeared here. There's also XXFILE MTA224 and GUNNER MTA381. I don't know what MCR or MTA means. Author names (Chris Reeve, Tim Anderson)?"
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"body": "FWIW, GUNNER was a process that was used to kill off runaway compilation processes (there was a batch-mode compiler), if memory serves. Not part of the interpreter, and not dependent on the Muddle-specific tool chain to be built.\r\n\r\nI don’t remember that convention for fn2, but it was 40 years ago.\r\n -ta\r\n\r\n\r\nFrom: Lars Brinkhoff [mailto:notifications@github.com]\r\nSent: Thursday, 12 April, 2018 16:11\r\nTo: PDP-10/its <its@noreply.github.com>\r\nCc: Anderson, Timothy A. <taa@stresearch.com>; Mention <mention@noreply.github.com>\r\nSubject: Re: [PDP-10/its] Muddle (#665)\r\n\r\n\r\nAlternatively, could we persuade MIDAS to build it in one hit by constructing a file that includes all the other sources\r\n\r\nYes, that's an option I have considered.\r\n\r\nIt looks like the source belongs in MUDSYS;\r\n\r\nThanks, I didn't notice that. We only have tiny scraps of information from DM ITS. There's a backup listing with these files:\r\n\r\nMUDSYS MAIN MCR317 18 1/27/77 17:59:27.5\r\n\r\nMUDSYS MAIN MCR318 18 1/28/77 10:10:21.5\r\n\r\nMUDSYS MAPPUR MCR185 18 1/31/77 13:59:58.5\r\n\r\nWe recognize MAIN and MAPPUR. Apparently the DynaMod fn2 naming convention with XXXNNN has appeared here. There's also XXFILE MTA224 and GUNNER MTA381. I don't know what MCR or MTA means. Author names (Chris Reeve, Tim Anderson)?\r\n\r\n—\r\nYou are receiving this because you were mentioned.\r\nReply to this email directly, view it on GitHub<https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/665#issuecomment-380929552>, or mute the thread<https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABnTXfK1u206d-NpRk0njioumtQgMfD2ks5tn7S2gaJpZM4SDl0R>.\r\n"
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"body": "Looks good to me so far!"
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"body": "Can get? Does that mean we don’t have the SUDS yet?\n\nI could convert them into netlists/verilog."
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"body": "I agree @eswenson1, but I'll save that for later. I want this in soon and not keep tweaking it.\r\n\r\nI tested the full build (whithout BASICS=yes), and there was a problem with Rabbit."
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"body": "Ok, so not ready to merge yet then?"
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"body": "No. It works in Travis, but it'll not work for a user who just runs make.\r\n\r\nI'm also checking this in your VPS to see if it now works with KLH10."
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"created_at": "2018-04-13T05:28:42Z",
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"body": "No, still doesn't work with KLH10. Somewhere like 6-10 minutes in, there's a problem with console I/O."
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"created_at": "2018-04-13T05:53:49Z",
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"body": "We do have SUDS. I checked in the binaries on a branch called lars/suds. This is the same as the DUMP tape image I published some time ago."
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"body": "MIDAS doesn't seem to know about block types 13-21."
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"body": "STINK 201 knows all SYS.03.02 block types, plus 22-30. But 23-30 are not supported."
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"body": "I've modified a copy of STINK (using JOTTO's neat printing macro!) to show details about the blocks, symbols and linker instructions it sees in its input. This makes it much clearer what's going on, since there's a very direct correspondence between what MIDAS sees in phase 2 and what gets written to the REL. So a bit more progress:\r\n\r\n- When STINK says \"bad format: symbol missing\", what it means is that the MIDAS source contained an EXPUNGE for a symbol that didn't exist. I've fixed one instance of this (DOTYPS in MUDDLE >) but it looks like there are others. It also looks like recovering from this error might be messing up STINK 201's internal state somehow; the older STINK 1 didn't try to recover.\r\n\r\n- I think the \"Multiply Defined Global\" messages for TVLOC etc. may be harmless. They are indeed defined multiple times, because the macros in MUDDLE redefine them to keep track of the list of definitions they're building up.\r\n\r\n- The \"Undefined Global Assignment\" messages for TVLOC etc. are because these are redefined by the MUDDLE macros, but the initial definition is only in SPECS. So you have to load SPECS REL into STINK before you load anything else. "
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"body": "There are some files hinting at the build process. assem.all isn't that useful; it just assembles all files. \r\n\r\nfirst and second.cmd are a interesting. There's a little bit of DDT patching going on.\r\n\r\nThe .stink files specify a set of files, and an order between them. SPECS is second.\r\n\r\nMaybe SECAGC shouldn't be linked into the ITS binary, because it's for multi-section machines. Or maybe it should; it could be that the multi-section code is inactive but other parts are used elsewhere."
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"body": "From SYSTEM; BITS:\r\n\r\n```\r\n; Apparently codes 234 - 237 are used for an undocumented kludge for\r\n; sending ARDS graphics protocol. See SYSENG;IMPRIN (the source of\r\n; :ARDPRN)."
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"body": "Split off Macsyma from lisp.tcl."
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"body": "Allow for building stage two. Start with the basics disk image, and build all optional programs."
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"created_at": "2018-04-13T12:48:47Z",
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"body": "ARDS manual: \r\nhttp://bitsavers.org/pdf/computerDisplaysInc/RM86802_ARDS_RefMan_Dec68.pdf"
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"created_at": "2018-04-13T14:02:25Z",
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"body": "Isn’t that already part of LIBLSP? I have both those source files, as well. "
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"created_at": "2018-04-13T14:13:16Z",
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"body": "Or Macsyma?"
},
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"created_at": "2018-04-13T14:18:03Z",
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"body": "SHARE; APLOT2 300 seems to be it. Thanks!"
},
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"created_at": "2018-04-13T18:03:29Z",
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"body": "This worked when I tested in my ITS. I only saw it break after I rearranged the build script.\r\n\r\nThings to check: if something inadvertently got reordered in the scripts."
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"created_at": "2018-04-13T18:55:43Z",
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"body": "Hello @bill-kornfeld,\r\n\r\nThere are a few of us involved with preserving software from the Incompatible Timesharing System and restoring it to working condition. We have found your game CHASE for VT52 terminals. The info file clearly states it's copyrighted by you. We would like to ask permission to publish your game on GitHub. May we do so?\r\n\r\nBest regards,\r\nLars Brinkhoff"
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"created_at": "2018-04-13T23:35:15Z",
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"body": "The code in STINK to recover from \"bad format: symbol missing\" is definitely wrong: it needs to read a second word from the input (PUSHJ P,RPB) like the successful path would do.\r\n\r\nFixing that in the old and new versions of STINK gets a bit further; you can load PURE and SPECS, and then whatever you load next causes STINK 201 to print \"Non-existant Memory\" (and STINK 1 to crash at UNTHR+2, which is the same thing).\r\n\r\nAfter a lot of tracing through STINK (and assuming I'm following this correctly), this happens in response to a local symbol definition in the type 3 block that's produced by the .LNKOT directive in the END macro. The block has previously included a link request code for the same local symbol, which should point to a linked list of addresses that the real address of the symbol should be written into. When STINK sees the definition, it tries to works its way through the linked list, but runs into a nonsense pointer (and ends up trying to interpret a string constant as an address).\r\n\r\nThe pointer in the link request is to a location that's later inside the same type 3 block -- which hasn't been read into memory yet because we've not got that far... so this looks like MIDAS's fault."
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"body": "A couple questions: Where should the executable go? When you build NGAME, you have to tell it where the executable is. So the executable could go anywhere. The data file used by the game is burned into the executable just prior to pdumping it, so it basically lives where it was when it was built. One possibility is to put the sources in GAMES; (this is where the original ADVENT source is, as well as JOTTO and WUMPUS). Historically, the sources were not available (they were encrypted in an archive in MC:EJS;). The executable was in an archive in EJS; or BMT1; Now, we don't have to hide the sources, so I recommend we put them either in EJS; or GAMES;. The executable could go in SYS3; -- where we've put the original ADVENT, or it could go in EJS; or GAMES;. One of the very confusing things is that we have three versions of ADVENT. The sources for the original game are a single file (ADVENT.F4). The sources for the 350-point version of advent are two files (ADVSB 2 and ADVSR 1) + the data file in ADVDB 1. The sources for the 448-point version of advent are two files (MAIN 3 and SUBRS 16) + the data file in DB 2. Creating the 448-point version renames the datafile (to FT01 DAT). So if we put all of these sources in GAMES; it will be a bit confusing for people who are looking at it. One possibility is to create three archives in GAMES; (or EJS;) AR1 ADVENT, AR2 ADV350, and AR3 ADV448). We can put the sources and database in those archives. We can then, during build, extract the files, build, and then delete them. That way, there will be no confusion as to which sources go to which version. \r\n\r\nNow, the 350- and 448-point versions of ADVENT are referenced in NGAME by filenames that are entered at assembly time. The other games locations are burned into the source (BMT1; or EJS;). Should I keep them in their historical places or move them to GAMES;?"
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"body": "@rcornwell, you requested ITS to use TM10B.\r\n\r\nMy plan is to have the boostrap ITS (the binary file bin/ka10/_/\\@.its) use TM10A, and then build the new ITS with TM10B. This way, we'll have some testing for both kind of devices."
}
]
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