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Lars Brinkhoff 7891748263 Update saved GitHub data.
2018-06-07 17:44:24 +02:00

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"created_at": "2018-04-27T21:06:59Z",
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"body": "Seems the files in MAPS are just a small selection of the data in .TAPE.\r\n\r\nThe .TAPE files aren't that complex. Some header, a little data for each directory, and then three words per file: name and presumably timestamp."
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"created_at": "2018-04-27T21:26:32Z",
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"body": "INFO; XGP 24 has a chapter on how to use XD."
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"body": "Network map for some part of MIT, from 1987: \r\nhttp://www.domain-logic.com/images/1987-network-map.gif"
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"body": "I'm pretty sure that XX's Chaosnet interface was on subnet 1 or 6.\r\nWell, OK, it's more confusing than that.\r\n\r\nXX had three network interfaces, two of which only spoke IP, the third\r\nof which only spoke Chaosnet.\r\n\r\nXX's real Chaosnet interface was a direct link to XI (XX's Chaosnet\r\nfront end PDP-11), but, per Bede's note, that link is not shown. I'm\r\npretty sure that XI had an original Chaosnet hardware network card,\r\nnot one of those newfangled Ethernet interfaces, so it would have been\r\nconnected to a physical Chaosnet subnet.\r\n\r\nXX did also have an Ethernet interface, which, well, and here's where\r\nI think the error crept in, was on subnet 26, not subnet 26. See, in\r\nthose days the MIT custom was to number subnets in octal. So XX's\r\ninternal IP address of 18.26.0.36 was on subnet 32 (as shown).\r\n"
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"body": "I looked at using eight or nine bits for the year field. For eight, it's generally agreed that it's probably no problem. For nine, I didn't see anything obviously damaging, but who knows.\r\n\r\nAnyone volunteering to run a system with the clock set 300 years ahead?"
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"body": "Some progress, which you can find in very messy form on the [ats/zork branch](https://github.com/PDP-10/its/tree/ats/zork). With lots of GC debugging information removed:\r\n\r\n```\r\n*:mdl\r\nMUDDLE 56 IN OPERATION.\r\nLISTENING-AT-LEVEL 1 PROCESS 1\r\n<RESTORE \"MADADV SAVE\">$\r\nThis Zork created January 1, 1980.\r\nWest of House\r\nThis is an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.\r\nThere is a small mailbox here.\r\nA rubber mat saying 'Welcome to Zork!' lies by the door.\r\n\r\n> [stub puts \"open mailbox\" into the input buffer]\r\n\r\nOpening the mailbox reveals a leaflet.\r\n```\r\n\r\nThis is still without the TELL assembly code; I'm using a bunch of pure-Muddle stubs based on the Confusion versions, hence the wrong date, lack of input, etc.\r\n\r\nTo answer some of the questions above:\r\n\r\n- When do the GCs run? `<GC-MON T>` makes MDL tell you, for both kinds of GC. There's also a `<BLOAT-STAT>` function which gives a variety of useful GC statistics.\r\n\r\n- Is the GC generally broken? I wrote [some tests](https://github.com/atsampson/its-tests/tree/master/muddle) for vector memory allocation which seems to behave fine. But the GC is complex enough that it's hard to test everything Zork is doing.\r\n\r\n- Disabling the compacting GC? You can do this with extra args to the `<GC>` function. It seems happier with the mark-sweep GC only... but it then just runs out of memory at approximately the same point that it crashed before. (Even if I rebuild MDL so the high segment is nearly where it's supposed to be.) So the run above is without the functions for the endgame included, which frees up enough space to get the rest of the game engine loaded. If I'm reading build.cmd correctly, some of the functions were originally precompiled to NBIN files, which I guess would have made them more compact...\r\n\r\n- The memory map is fine, going by the description in the Muddle manuals.\r\n\r\nI'm now wondering about trying to construct an NBIN file with one of the simpler assembly routines in (e.g. PSTRING). I did find a TOPS-20 ZORK.SAV in the PANDA distribution, which should include similar versions of these routines in assembled form. The manual has a good description of how registers are used in these routines, but the challenge will be figuring out how things like MQUOTE work."
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"body": "Way to go! That's fantastic news. I have to share a funny anecdote: just this morning, we got Zork (Dungeon) to run on Multics. We used the Fortran port and had to make lots of changes in order to get it to work -- Multics Fortran lacked some required functionality. So two zork-related news flashes on two obsolete operating systems in the same day. How weird is that?"
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"body": "Seems like the GitHub thing is a dead end, at least until the bug is fixed. Or maybe the failure is by design, I'm not sure. The first two builds to finish (SIMH and KLH10) can't deploy, but the last one (KA10) works.\r\n\r\nDeploying to S3 seems ok though."
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"body": "So loading the game files and writing out MADADV SAVE works fine when the endgame is excluded?\r\n\r\nI wonder whether it would be easier to do some hack to create NBIN files, or resurrect a compiler if it could be found."
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"body": "The image files are visible here: \r\nhttps://s3.amazonaws.com/pdp-10-its/"
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"body": "Yes, MDL's SAVE and RESTORE seem to work OK, at least from the test above -- and are much faster than loading the source files the first time. I expect there's still other stuff broken about the game that we'll find when we get input working and can play through a walkthrough. (When we eventually add this to build.tcl, playing through the first few moves automatically would be a good test for MDL!)\r\n\r\nIt would obviously save a lot of effort if the compiler (and assembler, which it depends on) can be found. I don't particularly fancy rewriting the assembler in Muddle, so I'm leaning towards some kind of MIDAS-based hack to get TELL working at the moment..."
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"body": "@larsbrinkhoff Where (in the above discussion) do you see (of infer) that Adam loaded the game files and created MADADV.SAVE without the endgame? Is that implied by something (that I'm just not aware of)?"
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"body": "Eric, it's in a commit comment in the ats/zork branch.\r\n\r\nApparently, loading Zork source files make them fill up the entire memory space. The TOPS-20 build.cmd script loads NBIN files, presumably compiled."
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"body": "This is very interesting. \"The aMazing History of Maze\", by Greg Thompson. \r\n\r\nhttp://slideplayer.com/slide/263520/\r\n\r\n@gregt590, do you have this picture in higher resolution?\r\n\r\n![PDS-1](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/775050/39538948-ad2e036e-4e3e-11e8-9277-22b3120abc99.png)\r\n"
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"created_at": "2018-05-02T17:42:35Z",
"updated_at": "2018-05-18T06:58:52Z",
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"body": "First picture: Imlac PDS-1 at Dynamic Modelling. \r\n![pds1](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/775050/39539746-ca17de3a-4e40-11e8-9063-8d5cbaf04aca.png)\r\nSecond: Imlac and E&S LDS-1 at DM.\r\n![pds1lds1](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/775050/39539751-cf2e9f8a-4e40-11e8-897c-33dd9ecb85c8.png)\r\n"
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"body": "@gregt590, or this one? \r\n![pds1lds1](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/775050/39544325-00eeb386-4e4e-11e8-9d97-8d7ec8ac6133.png)\r\n"
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"created_at": "2018-05-03T11:24:11Z",
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"body": "I made this a pull request to add SUDS. I haven't tested the binaries much at all, because there's still a problem with using the 340 display. The primary value of this is to add the source code files and a working build script made by guidance from the INFO files. SCNV is a separate commit because it's a MIDAS program. It seems likely it's written at MIT, not Stanford."
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"created_at": "2018-05-03T15:34:48Z",
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"body": "As part of building WL, NODIPS BIN is pdumped to DATDRW, so I'm assuming it could be a useful program in its own right. But maybe it's not, I don't know."
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"created_at": "2018-05-03T15:52:51Z",
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"body": "SYSENG; MACRO TAPES has a ten-word record for each tape. The information includes tape number, date, who made it. As far as I can see, it doesn't cover the full history of backups. Far from it."
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"created_at": "2018-05-03T17:08:45Z",
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"body": "Lars:\n\nI believe these photos came out of a brochure for the Laboratory for Computer Sciences (formerly Project Mac) published by MIT in 1975 that was reconstructed in HTML by Peter Szolovits <http://www.medg.lcs.mit.edu/people/psz/psz.html>, in 1995 who may still be able to be reached at psz@mit.edu <mailto:psz@mit.edu>.\n\nA zip archive of the html brochure I believe with at least some the pictures in question is attached below. However they are not of much higher resolution. You may want to contact LCS, now CSAIL at MIT for the originals.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n- Greg\n\nOne of the original Maze War <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maze_War> authors.\n\n-----------------------------------------------------\nGreg Thompson, MIT class of ‘78\nConvergence CT CTO <http://www.convergencect.com/>\ni-GATE Innovation Hub <http://www.igateihub.org/> & BRIIA Mentor <https://briia.io/mentors>\nMIT Education Council member <https://stargate.mit.edu/ectrackweb/home.mit> ID# 103065\nLivermore, CA 94550\nMobile phone: +1-925-321-6146\nPersonal e-mail: gregt@alum.mit.edu <mailto:gregt@alum.mit.edu>\ni-GATE e-mail: greg.thompson@igateihub.org <mailto:greg.thompson@igateihub.org>\nLinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/grthomps <http://www.linkedin.com/in/grthomps>\n\nIn response to:\nOn May 2, 2018, at 12:16 PM, Lars Brinkhoff <notifications@github.com> wrote:\n\n@gregt590 <https://github.com/gregt590>, or this one?\n <https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/775050/39544325-00eeb386-4e4e-11e8-9d97-8d7ec8ac6133.png>\n—\nYou are receiving this because you were mentioned.\nReply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/236#issuecomment-386089609>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADUttmErvGyR_jbesXPQ6I7adzVL7Qsdks5tugXygaJpZM4LKT50>.\n\n\nFrom: Lars Brinkhoff <notifications@github.com>\nSubject: Re: [PDP-10/its] MAZE - game (#236)\nDate: May 2, 2018 at 10:26:56 AM PDT\nTo: PDP-10/its <its@noreply.github.com>\nCc: Greg Thompson <gregt@alum.mit.edu>, Mention <mention@noreply.github.com>\nReply-To: PDP-10/its <reply@reply.github.com>\nThis is very interesting. \"The aMazing History of Maze\", by Greg Thompson.\n\nhttp://slideplayer.com/slide/263520/ <http://slideplayer.com/slide/263520/>\n@gregt590 <https://github.com/gregt590>, do you have this picture in higher resolution?\n\n <https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/775050/39538948-ad2e036e-4e3e-11e8-9277-22b3120abc99.png>\n—\nYou are receiving this because you were mentioned.\nReply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/236#issuecomment-386056148>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ADUttrJwEhOOuVJk-zE2kbQOx-XM7NGxks5tuexggaJpZM4LKT50>.\n\n\n"
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"body": "Thank you Greg. Yes, the pictures are in the brochure."
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"body": "The .TAPE files go back to 1985. So it looks like the backup tape database was remade from scratch when the KS10 machines replaced the older ones.\r\n\r\nI made Unix tools to print out the contents of MACRO TAPES and TAPE nnn files."
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"body": "\"U T - Telnet Reference Manual\" \r\nhttp://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-292.pdf"
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"body": "http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-164a.pdf \r\nhttp://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-215a.pdf \r\nhttp://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-358.pdf\r\n"
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"created_at": "2018-05-04T08:55:35Z",
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"body": "Dover, oh Dover, arisen from dead.\r\nDover, oh Dover, awoken from bed.\r\nDover, oh Dover, welcome back to the Lab.\r\nDover, oh Dover, we've missed your clean hand...\r\n\r\nAnd now your toner's toney,\r\nAnd your paper near pure white,\r\nThe smudges on your soul are gone\r\nAnd your output's clean as light..\r\n\r\nWe've labored with your father,\r\nThe venerable XGP,\r\nBut his slow artistic hand,\r\nLacks your clean velocity.\r\n\r\nTheses and papers\r\nAnd code in a queue\r\nDover, oh Dover,\r\nWe've been waiting for you.\r\n\r\nDisk blocks aplenty\r\nAwait your laser drawn lines,\r\nYour intricate fonts,\r\nYour pictures and signs.\r\n\r\nYour amputative absence\r\nHas made the Ten dumb,\r\nWithout you, Dover,\r\nWe're system untounged-\r\n\r\nDRAW Plots and TEXage\r\nHave been biding their time,\r\nWith LISP code and programs,\r\nAnd this crufty rhyme.\r\n\r\nDover, oh Dover,\r\nWe welcome you back,\r\nThough still you may jam,\r\nYou're on the right track."
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"body": "Information from http://mumble.net/~jar/s48/\r\n\r\n> We developed under Common Lisp on the Symbolics 3600, as well as under Maclisp on the PDP-10, using various sets of macros that gave these Lisps a Scheme-like syntax. This was not 'incestuous' since the part of the system executed by the underlying Lisp (the virtual machine, or VM) was carefully written in such a way that it in principle it did not need a garbage collector, tail recursion, or other Lisp-specific apparatus; it was really a C or assembly-level program with Lisp syntax. Scheme 48's Lispy implementation language ('LIL' was the acronym used at MIT for this kind of thing in the 1970s) was later dubbed 'Pre-Scheme'."
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"body": "Sounds useful. If it's doing rasterisation already, I wonder if it could be modified to produce PBM output files for modern systems..."
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"body": "```\r\nHiHiHiHi HiHiHiHi Hi\r\nHiHiHiHi HiHiHiHi HiHiHi\r\nHiHiHiHi HiHiHiHi HiHiHiHi\r\n HiHi HiHi HiHiHiHi\r\n HiHi HiHi HiHiHi\r\n HiHi HiHi Hi\r\n HiHi HiHi\r\n HiHiHiHiHiHiHiHi HiHiHi\r\n HiHiHiHiHiHiHiHi HiHiHi\r\n HiHiHiHiHiHiHiHi HiHiHi\r\n HiHi HiHi HiHi\r\n HiHi HiHi HiHi\r\n HiHi HiHi HiHi\r\n HiHi HiHi HiHi\r\nHiHiHiHi HiHiHiHi HiHiHiHiHiHi\r\nHiHiHiHi HiHiHiHi HiHiHiHiHiHi\r\nHiHiHiHi HiHiHiHi HiHiHiHiHiHi\r\n"
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"body": "I see there's a file called SPELL; WORDS 212. Maybe that's needed too."
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"body": "According to http://textfiles.com/hacking/INTERNET/arpanet2.txt, SRI-NIC used to operate a \"NICNAME\" server which could be queried for information about Arpanet users.\r\n\r\nI'm guessing this service doesn't exist any more!"
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"body": "I've got this to compile with a reconstructed TAA; UUOS > -- [ats/xxfile](https://github.com/PDP-10/its/tree/ats/xxfile). I'm seeing the same behaviour as @larsbrinkhoff above, I think:\r\n\r\n```\r\n*:print simple xx\r\n:$This is a simple test.$\r\n:listf taa;\r\n*:xxfile simple out_simple xx\r\n STYOPN ATS 12 XXFILE 20:01:43\r\n:PROCED\r\n* LOGIN ATS0 12 20:01:44\r\n LOGOUT ATS0 12 20:01:45\r\nJob XXFILE interrupted: .VALUE;\r\n```\r\n\r\nIf you $p it at this point, it completes successfully and the output file is correct. I'm not sure if that's the intended behaviour or not?"
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"body": "WHOIS is alive and well, and the protocol is still the same (send a query line terminated by a CRLF, read text response until the connection is closed). So it'd probably work fine if you pointed it at whois.arin.net and queried for an IP address, for example."
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"body": "Chapter 2 of this, which says it was \"written by Ralph E. Gorin at Stanford University and modified slightly at Columbia\", is nearly the same as INFO; PDP-10 >. I can't see it on SAILDART, but perhaps it's in REG's non-public directory..."
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"body": "I also have a reconstructed TAA; UUOS, but I didn't get as far as verifying it by comparing an assembled binary. I see there are some differences between yours and mine, so maybe we can merge them together.\r\n\r\nEDIT: In the lars/taa-uuos branch."
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"body": "I think your test worked better than mine. ATS0 was logged in and out, so that seems like a completed run. I don't think I got to that valret.\r\n\r\nI don't know if the valret is intended behaviour or not. I don't think it's mentioned in the manual."
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"created_at": "2018-05-05T12:16:21Z",
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"body": "I've merged your UUOS and mine together; thanks for your suggestions!\r\n\r\nI'm now pretty convinced that it's working as intended. If XXFILE's output isn't to a DSK: file, then it valrets :PROCED to detach from the TTY, but it still needs to valret again upon exiting to turn off ..SAFE -- so DDT has to ask you to reattach it as above.\r\n\r\n`:xxfile tty:_simple xx` works fine for me; it runs the commands from the file (without detaching), and :KILLs cleanly when done. If you say `:xxfile /p tty:_simple xx`, then the STY emulates a printing terminal and it doesn't clear the screen on logout, etc., so that's probably more appropriate if we wanted to use it in build.tcl."
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"created_at": "2018-05-05T19:45:38Z",
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"body": "Anyone know how to insert a ^Z (control-z) in a file from emacs? I wanted to try out XXFILE, but I needed to send a ^Z to the process (e.g. LISP, or DECSYS; F40 and can't figure it out. The obvious (^Q ^Z) doesn't work -- for obvious reasons."
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"created_at": "2018-05-05T20:04:52Z",
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"body": "First ^Q, then ^_, finally ^Z."
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"created_at": "2018-05-05T20:23:32Z",
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"body": "Thanks. Since I didn't remember that, I did the following. Created a file with a ^Y in it. Then I created a job, loaded the file into core, found the word with the ^Y in it, and patched it to ^Z. Then saved the file back out again. I think your suggested way is much better! :-)"
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"body": "While we're at it, if you create a STY, and are providing input to the STY, and then, say, logout, how do you get back to the original hactrn? I tried ^_ and various possible characters to no avail. I wasn't sure where we have the doc on STYs in the file system (didn't see a STY > in .INFO. or INFO. "
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"created_at": "2018-05-05T22:28:52Z",
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"body": "Or, to be thoroughly anachronistic, HTTP?"
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"body": "These would now be useful for SCNV, which wants at least 13FG KST, 20FG KST, 25FG KST, 33FR KST, 40VSHD KST from FONTS;."
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"body": "Good question. I never got the hang of :REATTACH etc.\r\n\r\nSYSDOC; ITSTTY > has a chapter on STYs."
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"body": "Good catch! I guess it's time to add some fonts.\r\n\r\nA quick check for /KST/ also reveals that \\@ uses some font(s), but it's unclear to me which. WL uses 20FG and 25FG."
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"body": "Here are the files in FONTS, FONTS1, and FONTS2."
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"body": "Thanks. Now I just have to work out what the sequence is to type. I think it is ^\\AZ but I have to do the math and try it out to know for sure. The esc char is ^\\ followed by two chars. The second is Z to send a ^Z, and the first sets the control, shift, etc meta bits. I think @ means none, and A means control."
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"created_at": "2018-05-06T15:49:30Z",
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"body": "We can try asking Ralph. What is the question, exactly? If we can get a copy of the original SAIL file?\r\n\r\nMaybe it evolved into this? https://github.com/PDP-10/documents/blob/master/asm-intro-dec10.pdf"
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"created_at": "2018-05-06T16:37:59Z",
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"body": "I use reattach all the time. I have multiple active sessions with ES-ITS — because I forget that i’m Logged in somewhere — so I use reattach to clean up — consolidate. I only use it with my uname as a parm so as to reattach an old hactrn."
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"body": "I think there are many ways to send a ^Z. The first two sends the ASCII ^Z, and the last two a Z with the control bucky bit set.\r\n\r\n- ^_^Z\r\n- ^_032\r\n- ^_^BZ\r\n- ^\\AZ\r\n"
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"body": "Yes, that looks like a descendent of the same text -- e.g. chapter 6.1.1 on MOVE is an extended version of the text from the other two documents.\r\n\r\nI'm not sure it's worth bothering him about at the moment, but if we get PUB/Scribe (and some kind of ersatz XGP-to-PDF process) up and running in the future then the sources for books like this would be nice to have."
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"body": "I had tried ^_^Z and that didn't work. I'll try the other three when I get a chance. "
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"body": "Well, I tried all of these and the only one that worked was ^\\\\^Z -- and only when logged out of the STY. If I had a HACTRN (logged in or not logged in), ^\\ evokes the JOB? prompt. ^_^Z outputs ?? while you have a HACTRN. ^_032 displays a ^Z and that displays ??. ^_^B^Z displays ??. So I don't know how to \"get back\" to your original session from the STY when the STY has a HACTRN (logged in or logged in). "
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"created_at": "2018-05-06T20:04:31Z",
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"body": "Also AI: BAWDEN; AR4 MCGFR:\r\n\r\nTJ6 -READ- \r\nTJ6 28 \r\nTJ6 ARCHIV \r\nTJ6 ORDER \r\nTJ6.3 RECENT \r\nTJ6MEM 61"
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"body": "> SQUISH\r\n> \r\n> This causes a ;SQUISH to appear on the XGP command page. ;SQUISH causes the XGP program to minimize the number of font character rasters shipped to the XGP's PDP11 and stored there. SCRIMP squishes by reading the entire file before sending fonts to the PDP11. It then sends only the rasters for characters which appear in the TJ6'ed file. (Normally, SCRIMP sends to the PDP11 and stores there the raster for every character in all the FONTs you used. Because of the limited size of the PDP11's memory, it sometimes does not have room for all those rasters.) SQUISH is useful when SCRIMP types out a \"CHARACTERS LOST\" error message.\r\n"
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"body": "Of the three hardcopy devices, the XGP seems most promising. Most typesetting applications support it, and the Dover is backwards compatible with SCAN files.\r\n\r\nThere are many options:\r\n\r\n- Run the PDP-11 code in SYSEN2; XGP 31.\r\n- Intercept files sent from SYSEN2; XGPSPL 197. This is a PDP-10 program which sends files from the spooling directory to the XGP 11.\r\n- Convert SCAN files to PDF without any PDP-10 or 11 involvement."
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"body": "Hardcopy file formats:\r\n\r\n- Plain ASCII.\r\n- SCAN. XGP bitmap.\r\n- PRESS. Dover.\r\n- PLT. Written by SUDS."
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"body": "I think this can wait a little to see if a wild KST FORMAT appears."
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"body": "Made a pull request based on the partial set of files from the archive.\r\n\r\nTested with the supplied TJ6MEM file. It seems to work except some files are missing:\r\n\r\n```\r\n*:tj6 tj6;test_tj6;tj6mem >\r\nDSK:FONTS;25VG KST NON-EXISTENT DIRECTORY\r\nCan't read font DSK:TJ6;TJ6MEM 61(1,1)(0,1)\r\nDSK:FONTS;25FR KST NON-EXISTENT DIRECTORY\r\nCan't read font DSK:TJ6;TJ6MEM 61(1,2)(0,1)\r\nDSK:FONTS;25VMIC KST NON-EXISTENT DIRECTORY\r\nCan't read font DSK:TJ6;TJ6MEM 61(1,4)(0,1)\r\nDSK:FONTS;25VRI KST NON-EXISTENT DIRECTORY\r\nCan't read font DSK:TJ6;TJ6MEM 61(1,6)(0,1)\r\nDSK:FONTS;40VSHD KST NON-EXISTENT DIRECTORY\r\nCan't read font DSK:TJ6;TJ6MEM 61(1,8)(0,1)\r\nInput DSK:TJ6;TJ6MEM TITLE FILE NOT FOUND\r\nInput DSK:TJ6;TJ6MEM CONTEN FILE NOT FOUND\r\nInput DSK:TJ6;ERROR > FILE NOT FOUND\r\nInput DSK:TJ6;TJ6MEM INDEX FILE NOT FOUND\r\n39 pages\r\n"
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"body": "The fonts are all in the #576 pull request."
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"body": "TJ6MEM seems to be the same as AIM 358 or one of its predecessors: \r\nhttps://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/6246/AIM-358.pdf"
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"body": "The content looks good. Do these directories need adding to the list in Makefile?\r\n\r\nThere's a description of the KST format in .INFO.; FED ORDER, with the note:\r\n\r\n> CAVEAT: Several bugs in the description of KST format have been fixed, by EBM, 11/10/79. I looked carefully at the source code for FED and XGPSPL, and tested things out to verify the fixes, but naturally cannot take complete responsibility since I did not write the programs."
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"created_at": "2018-05-07T10:52:11Z",
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"body": "Thanks. Added to Makefile."
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"created_at": "2018-05-07T10:53:36Z",
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"body": "People reminiscing about the Dover and XGP: \r\nhttp://philip.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0006XJ"
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"body": "[AI WP 64](https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/41099/AI_WP_064.pdf) mentions GTLOAD."
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"body": "MAB; TS DISPLD can be used to load the display program."
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"body": "[AI WP 72](https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/41107/AI_WP_072.pdf): XGP Font Catalog."
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"body": "More Dover and XGP info. Like to Spruce source code. \r\nhttp://xeroxalto.computerhistory.org/xerox_alto_file_system_archive.html"
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"body": "Good, then it's only the title and list of error messages that's missing."
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"body": "I see e.g. TJ6 writes output with text still in ASCII form, i.e. not SCAN files. So font rendering happens in the PDP-11. So the third option (converting SCAN to PDF) isn't useful in this case."
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"body": "Yep, XGP sounds like a good bet. Going from XGP to PDF directly would probably produce the nicest output - some of the fonts used could be mapped to the standard PDF fonts, and others could be converted (which'd be a bit of work) or rendered as bitmaps.\r\n\r\nA lower-tech approach would be to modify XD (#635) or VERSA (#856) to write their rasterised output as a bitmap file, then convert to PDF from there. It'd probably look OK but not be searchable.\r\n\r\nIt looks like SAIL used a similar format for their XGP - [this description](https://www.saildart.org/j5/J17_html/XGPSER.html#XGPSER:0023) is nearly the same as [INFO;XGP](https://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/info/xgp.24#L341)."
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"body": "[AI WP 197](https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/41034/AI_WP_197.pdf): The Last Whole XGP Font Catalog.\r\n\r\nAlso has a description of the KST format."
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"body": "(AI WP 229)[https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/41173/AI_WP_229.pdf]"
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"body": "Having dug into the (elegant and well-documented) code for this a bit... when invoked as VERSA, it goes into a test mode where it loads a fixed series of files and displays them using SUPDUP graphics.\r\n\r\nIf you invoke it with a different name (perhaps SPOOLR), it operates as MC's general-purpose printer spooler, reading files from .GLPR.; in various formats, rasterising them into a large array, and feeding them to various output devices (e.g. Gould and Versatec printers). One of the output devices is \"hargld\", which writes 200DPI run-length-encoded bitmap files to .TEMP.;, and it looks like it'd be straightforward to convert those to a modern format, or add a similar backend to write a different format.\r\n\r\nThe .GLPR. directory came from the Gould spooler, which is documented in INFO; GLP >. AI: SYSENG; XQUEUE > is the program to add files to the queue.\r\n\r\nOn the downside, XGP input support is commented out, and ITS OBUGS0 includes a 1982 post from DCP which says:\r\n\r\n> In theory (if I turned on XGP file recognition in the spooler), XGP files produced by R come out correctly, but XGP files produced by TJ6 or BOLIO (and I think @) cause it to crash."
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"body": "There's something to be said for pixel-perfect rendering. Also, I'd like to see SUDS drawings. Maybe XD would be the way to go for this.\r\n\r\nBut you have a good point about searchability. I suppose (given enough effort) the fonts could be embedded into the PDFs."
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"body": "Bolio? Yet another typesetting thing?!? For the Lisp machine, it seems. I'll let @ams handle that."
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"body": "BS; DAZZLE 68 \r\nHAL; DAZZLE 2 \r\nHAL; DAZZL DART \r\nHAL; DAZZL PDP11\r\n\r\nI'll check up on this, which is from an old email:\r\n> I still have an XGP listing of the PDP6 program, now in front of me (made a wild guess as to location, and grabbed the right binder off a dusty corner of my shelf)."
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"body": "[AI memo 356](ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-356.pdf) has a section on Dazzle Dart. This is a paper written by Hal Abelson about LOGO, primarily running on a PDP-11. So the HAL; DAZZL PDP11 file is highly interesting in this context."
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"body": "Andy diSessa, Harold Abelson, and Nat Goodman are credited as the game creators."
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"body": "Hello @natgoodman,\r\n\r\nWe're working on bringing Dazzle Darts back. Do you know if there were both PDP-11 and PDP-6 versions?"
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"created_at": "2018-05-08T14:10:32Z",
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"body": "Also needed for pre-Pascal TEX. #867 "
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"created_at": "2018-05-08T14:15:20Z",
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"body": "Sounds like fun! I’m not sure why I’m on this mailing list other than the fact that I did a lot of PDP-11 programming and a teeny bit on the 6 (way back when, of course). \n\nI have no clue as to what Dazzle Darts version existed, nor for that matter any recollection of the program itself. \n\nGood luck with the project!\n\nAll the best,\nNathan Goodman\n\n> On May 8, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Lars Brinkhoff <notifications@github.com <mailto:notifications@github.com>> wrote:\n> \n> Hello @natgoodman <https://github.com/natgoodman>,\n> \n> We're working on bringing Dazzle Darts back. Do you know if there were both PDP-11 and PDP-6 versions?\n> \n> —\n> You are receiving this because you were mentioned.\n> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/868#issuecomment-387415078>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ALpP_vNNuw4Go-9jRMnM2gaMoQBLfbwHks5twabxgaJpZM4T2ITO>.\n> \n\n"
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"created_at": "2018-05-08T14:21:17Z",
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"body": "I have loaded the file into SUDS and written out a PLT file. It's very small, so it doesn't seem ok.\r\n\r\nI also converted it to XGP SCAN format with SCNV.\r\n\r\nBoth files can be found here: http://lars.nocrew.org/its/advplt.dump"
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"body": "@natgoodman \r\n\r\nMy apologies! I found information online that you was one of the Dazzle Darts creators, but in light of your message it seems the information is wrong. I suppose it's highly unlikely there's another PDP-11 and 6 programmer with the same name!"
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"created_at": "2018-05-08T15:49:36Z",
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"body": "![adv0 pbm](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/436317/39767914-bf41f90c-52df-11e8-9d20-59e20f9e7be4.png)\r\n"
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"created_at": "2018-05-08T15:56:52Z",
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"body": "Thanks. Clearly something's wrong. My guess at this point is that the SUDS version from ITS doesn't fully understand the DRW file written by some other version used at DEC. (If indeed it's the DRW file made by Dick Helliwell.) Just viewing the file as ASCII shows lots of strings referring to locations in the cave, and they don't appear in the PLT file.\r\n\r\nOn the good side, SUDS and SCNV does *something* with the files."
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"created_at": "2018-05-08T16:27:14Z",
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"body": "I don’t think I’m the guy, but it was a long time ago, so maybe.. If you don’t mind sending along a pointer to the online info you found, I’ll take a look and see if any bells ring. I tried a Google search but found nothing useful.\n\nI imagine you’re planning to reimplement the game in Javascript or some other current-day language. If instead you’re thinking of a PDP-11 implementation, I might enjoy refreshing my memory of that terrific machine and helping out in some way.\n\nAll the best,\nNathan\n\n> On May 8, 2018, at 7:27 AM, Lars Brinkhoff <notifications@github.com <mailto:notifications@github.com>> wrote:\n> \n> @natgoodman <https://github.com/natgoodman>\n> My apologies! I found information online that you was one of the Dazzle Darts creators, but in light of your message it seems the information is wrong. I suppose it's highly unlikely there's another PDP-11 and 6 programmer with the same name!\n> \n> —\n> You are receiving this because you were mentioned.\n> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/868#issuecomment-387421145>, or mute the thread <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ALpP_pxSq-W3nZDickryWbi7iqKKgi-5ks5twas9gaJpZM4T2ITO>.\n> \n\n"
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"created_at": "2018-05-08T17:24:04Z",
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"body": "@natgoodman,\r\n\r\nSince you're reading this through your mailbox, there's some context you haven't seen. I'm posting these messages on GitHub. Specifically, to a repository with source code and build scripts for the PDP-10 Incompatible Timesharing System developed at MIT. The intent is to bring back as many ITS applications as possible. So Javascript is quite out of the question here. :-)\r\n\r\nI'll gladly provide some pointers. These are the only tidbits of information we have so far.\r\n\r\nHere's information about the game: \r\nhttp://www.kaleberg.com/dazzle/dazzle.html\r\n\r\nHal Abelson mentions the game in section 2.5.2 of MIT AI memo 356: \r\nhttps://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/5787/AIM-356.pdf\r\n\r\nAn ITS hacker wrote this in an archived email message: \r\n> I still have an XGP listing of the PDP6 program, now in front of me\r\n\r\nSomewhere in this list, Dazzle Dart is credited to diSessa, Abelson, and Goodman: \r\nhttp://dadgum.com/giantlist/#D\r\n\r\nAnd there are some file names in a backup listing: \r\nBS; DAZZLE 68 \r\nHAL; DAZZLE 2 \r\nHAL; DAZZL DART \r\nHAL; DAZZL PDP11"
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"body": "Hello @cbf9427,\r\n\r\nDo you remember the game Dazzle Dart? And if so, whether there were versions for PDP-11 and PDP-6 (and perhaps other machines)?"
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"body": "Yes, I remember Dazzle Dart. It was a great game, I'd love to play it again.\r\n\r\nI believe there was only ever a single instance of Dazzle Dart, running on unique hardware -- set up only in the Logo Lab at 545 Tech Square. And I don't believe it remained set up for that long. I believe I only got to play Dazzle Dart a handful of times.\r\n\r\nIt definitely did not run on the AI Lab PDP6 (which was that only one MIT had in the 1970s).\r\n\r\nI'm pretty sure at least a portion of Dazzle Dart ran on a PDP11 (and the file names in the HAL directory above would seem to confirm that). However, I think there's a good possibility that the other portion ran on the Logo3400 -- a 16 bit minicomputer that Marvin Minsky (and Seymour Papert?) designed for running Logo. I believe the 3400 was attached to a unique display -- possibly the \"Minsky Display\" mentioned in AI memo 356 mentioned above. (I'm a little surprised that the memo doesn't mention the Logo 3400 -- and in fact, Google can't seem to find any reference to the Logo 3400, so my memory of these things 40+ years ago might not be that precise..).\r\n\r\nAre those files in the HAL: directory accessible somewhere? I could likely give you better information if I could examine them.\r\n\r\nHal Abelson would certainly know more. Danny Hillis might know more about the hardware setup, as he took a job programming the Logo 3400. (A job I foolishly turned down)."
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"body": "Thank you for good info @cbf9427! It'll take a while to fully digest this.\r\n\r\nHere's more about the PDP6 version, if there ever was one. \"AMF arm pots\" sounds a lot like AI lab!\r\n> the problem is getting enough input controls for 4 players. For the 6 we tried to use the bank of AMF arm pots, and actually had enough bits altogether, but some pots were broken, others were non-linear, and the whole thing was just too clumsy to be any fun.\r\n\r\nThe files aren't available now. Hopefully some time in the future. I'll post updates here."
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"body": "I have examined the display lists sent to .DSTART. These are the last two ones. After the second, ITS hangs.\r\n\r\n```\r\ndlvis/ DLPP,,DLVIS+1\r\ndlpp/ -3,,DLSTOP\r\n$q+1/ 001160,,200000\r\nPPBLK+1/ 200400,,333436\r\nPPBLK+2/ 343335,,513737\r\ndlvis+1/ DLPG,,0\r\ndlpg/ -26,,601156\r\n$q+1/ 000160,,200000\r\n601160/ 200000,,201700\r\n601161/ 201740,,201740\r\n601162/ 200000,,001160\r\n601163/ 351517,,040575\r\n601164/ 024040,,402303\r\n601165/ 147560,,654040\r\n601166/ 401426,,147557\r\n601167/ 404040,,366335\r\n601170/ 753737,,000000\r\n601171/ 201000,,001000\r\n601172/ 000002,,201000\r\n601173/ 201000,,201000\r\n601174/ 201000,,201000\r\n601175/ 201000,,201000\r\n601176/ 201000,,201000\r\n601177/ 201000,,201010\r\n601200/ 201010,,000001\r\n601201/ 710220,,000001\r\n601202/ 201010,,200770\r\n601203/ 000001,,710020\r\n601204/ 000000,,000000\r\n```\r\n\r\n```\r\ndlvis/ DLPP,,DLVIS+1\r\ndlpp/ -3,,DLSTOP\r\n$q+1/ 001160,,200000\r\nPPBLK+1/ 200400,,333436\r\nPPBLK+2/ 343335,,513737\r\ndlvis+1/ DLPG,,0\r\ndlpg/ -31,,601156\r\n$q+1/ 000160,,200000\r\n601160/ 200000,,201700\r\n601161/ 201740,,002160\r\n601162/ 355137,,000000\r\n601163/ 201740,,000000\r\n601164/ 000002,,201740\r\n601165/ 200000,,001160\r\n601166/ 351517,,040575\r\n601167/ 024040,,402303\r\n601170/ 147560,,654040\r\n601171/ 401426,,147557\r\n601172/ 404040,,366335\r\n601173/ 753737,,000000\r\n601174/ 201000,,001000\r\n601175/ 000002,,201000\r\n601176/ 201000,,201000\r\n601177/ 201000,,201000\r\n601200/ 201000,,201000\r\n601201/ 201000,,201000\r\n601202/ 201000,,201010\r\n601203/ 201010,,000001\r\n601204/ 710220,,000001\r\n601205/ 201010,,200770\r\n601206/ 000001,,710020\r\n601207/ 000000,,000000\r\n"
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"body": "Thanks for the further info. Speak of a blast from the past. Yes, I’m the right Goodman. I’ll reply more fully on GitHub when I get in front of a computer. \n\nBest,\nNat\n----------\nSent from my iPhone\n\n> On May 8, 2018, at 10:24 AM, Lars Brinkhoff <notifications@github.com> wrote:\n> \n> @natgoodman,\n> \n> Since you're reading this through your mailbox, there's some context you haven't seen. I'm posting these messages on GitHub. Specifically, to a repository with source code and build scripts for the PDP-10 Incompatible Timesharing System developed at MIT. The intent is to bring back as many ITS applications as possible. So Javascript is quite out of the question here. :-)\n> \n> I'll gladly provide some pointers. These are the only tidbits of information we have so far.\n> \n> Here's information about the game:\n> http://www.kaleberg.com/dazzle/dazzle.html\n> \n> Hal Abelson mentions the game in section 2.5.2 of MIT AI memo 356:\n> https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/5787/AIM-356.pdf\n> \n> An ITS hacker wrote this in an archived email message:\n> \n> I still have an XGP listing of the PDP6 program, now in front of me\n> \n> Somewhere in this list, Dazzle Dart is credited to diSessa, Abelson, and Goodman:\n> http://dadgum.com/giantlist/#D\n> \n> And there are some file names in a backup listing:\n> BS; DAZZLE 68\n> HAL; DAZZLE 2\n> HAL; DAZZL DART\n> HAL; DAZZL PDP11\n> \n> —\n> You are receiving this because you were mentioned.\n> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.\n> \n"
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"body": "I'm assuming this is with ITS patched to allow addresses above 128K\n(memory inside the DECUUO simulator)? That fact alone makes me\nwonder whether the configuration you're testing was ever used or ever\nworked.\n\nThe last time I looked at decoded/debug output from type340.c for a\nSUDS display list, it wasn't happy (saw bit patterns that weren't\nexpected given the current state of the display word interpreter).\n\nDid you say you had SUDS sources? It might be interesting to look at\nthe code driving the 340 and see what it's trying to do!\n\n"
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"body": "Here's a SUDS drawing:\r\n\r\n![rdrs](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/436317/39788747-b8d71f04-5323-11e8-9f6a-bd6d05846e98.png)\r\n\r\nSUDS -> SCNV -> [VERSA (modified)](https://github.com/PDP-10/its/tree/ats/versa) -> [gldtopbm](https://github.com/atsampson/pdp10-its-disassembler/tree/gould)."
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"created_at": "2018-05-09T04:47:20Z",
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"body": "Yes, this is with a patched ITS. I think I saw information that the GT40 was used for SUDS at MIT. Beoynd that I don't think I have seen anything else about which displays were used with DECUUO or SUDS, so you may be right that this configuration isn't quite working.\r\n\r\nI'm not sure if the display list type340.c receives is the same that DECUUO sends. It's one of the things I'd like to verify in the near future.\r\n\r\nYes, we now have SUDS sources. SUDS is built to use the SAIL III displays, and then DECUUO translates the display lists (\"pieces of glass\" in SAIL terminology) to the MIT output device."
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"body": "So getting SUDS output works, even if a bit convulsed? Great! Any (dumbed down) instructions for how to do this?"
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"body": "Start SUDS and load file:\r\n\r\n *:d\r\n *^CIFILENAME? foo; bar drw\r\n\r\nWrite plot file, then exit SUDS:\r\n\r\n *^FWPLOT FILENAME?quux\r\n\r\nConvert to SCAN file. SCNV will pick the PLT file in the current directory, and replace it with a SCN file.\r\n\r\n *:scnv\r\n\r\nFor this to work, install fonts! They are on a branch.\r\n\r\nI'm not fully clear on how @atsampson's VERSA works, but it seems you can enter a file name on the command line, i.e.\r\n\r\n *:versa foo scn\r\n\r\nFinally get that file out of ITS and run the gldtopbm tool linked above."
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"created_at": "2018-05-09T08:15:25Z",
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"body": "New filenames:\r\nHAL; DAZMEM PAPER \r\nKLH; DAZDRT BIN \r\nKLH; DAZDRT MAIL"
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"user": {
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"avatar_url": "https://avatars1.githubusercontent.com/u/7945138?v=4",
"gravatar_id": "",
"url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams",
"html_url": "https://github.com/ams",
"followers_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/followers",
"following_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/following{/other_user}",
"gists_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/gists{/gist_id}",
"starred_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/starred{/owner}{/repo}",
"subscriptions_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/subscriptions",
"organizations_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/orgs",
"repos_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/repos",
"events_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/events{/privacy}",
"received_events_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/received_events",
"type": "User",
"site_admin": false
},
"created_at": "2018-05-09T08:48:10Z",
"updated_at": "2018-05-09T08:48:10Z",
"author_association": "NONE",
"body": "Is this in the versa branch?"
},
{
"url": "https://api.github.com/repos/PDP-10/its/issues/comments/387669608",
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"gravatar_id": "",
"url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams",
"html_url": "https://github.com/ams",
"followers_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/followers",
"following_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/following{/other_user}",
"gists_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/gists{/gist_id}",
"starred_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/starred{/owner}{/repo}",
"subscriptions_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/subscriptions",
"organizations_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/orgs",
"repos_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/repos",
"events_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/events{/privacy}",
"received_events_url": "https://api.github.com/users/ams/received_events",
"type": "User",
"site_admin": false
},
"created_at": "2018-05-09T08:50:53Z",
"updated_at": "2018-05-09T08:50:53Z",
"author_association": "NONE",
"body": "I’ll figure it out instead of asking lazy questions :-)"
}
]
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