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Lars Brinkhoff 7891748263 Update saved GitHub data.
2018-06-07 17:44:24 +02:00

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"body": "KLH sent me a scan of the PDP-6 version. Now to run it through OCR..."
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"created_at": "2018-05-12T20:41:41Z",
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"body": "The PDP-11 version uses the TK display. By Tom Knight of course.\r\n\r\nI saw the hardware registers are called NGCSR and NGREL. Lo and behold, 11SIM has these registers defined!"
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"body": "Geez. I'm no expert on Trek. It's a Star Trek simulation game, where you are in charge of the Enterprise, are fighting Klingons, have photon torpedoes and phasers at your disposal. You choose the size of the galaxy (in number of quadrants) and can leverage a battle computer to compute directions and warp factors. You can replenish your energy, torpedoes, etc. by docking at one of your star bases. Your goal is to defeat all the klingons. Does that work?"
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"body": "The EJS; O > source is a midas program that just tells the user to use the \"O\" command in the GAME program. It does not include the source for Othello. In fact, I cannot find this source anywhere."
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"body": "Sure Eric, I'll use that. Just need one or two sentences for each game, and how to start it. Maybe point to some instructions."
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"created_at": "2018-05-13T12:58:42Z",
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"body": "Tested 11SIM with 340 display. It works. Run `:pdp45` and then at the ! prompt, type `;a ngdis`.\r\n\r\nMaybe Dazzle Dart will run in 11SIM."
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"body": "Hello @hqm,\r\n\r\nThe other day in 1987, you asked about the game Dazzle Dart. Maybe this GitHub issue answers some of your questions."
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"body": "You might also ask Bruce Edwards, he was a grad student who I think I remember playing in \r\ndazzle dart and maybe implementing some code for the PDP11 Logo displays. \r\nhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/bruce-edwards-76822a7/"
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"body": "Maybe this can be of use: \r\nhttps://github.com/PDP-10/muddle/tree/master/%3Cmdl.comp%3E"
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"body": "This will do for now, I think.\r\n\r\nAdded another commit with various ITS doc files."
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"body": "Maybe the TK display?\r\n\r\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=112&v=maDzjHIiXZc"
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"body": "Atari Logo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nisFUjnO87g"
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"body": "This is about the MIT Logo group: \r\nhttps://logothings.wikispaces.com/The70s\r\n\r\nMaybe the Tom Knight display? \r\n![](https://logothings.wikispaces.com/file/view/room.jpg/30480899/room.jpg)"
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"body": "@cbf9427,\r\n\r\nIs this the Logo minicomputer? According to the video, it's called the 2500. I wonder if those \"vector scopes\" are the displays made by Tom Knight?\r\n\r\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4kMzrDr4jQ"
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"body": "Additional files, maybe 11SIM image files: \r\nDONTUS DISK \r\nFIXED DISK \r\nJDC DMP \r\nNG DMP \r\nRJL DMP \r\nRWW DMP \r\nSITS0 DISK \r\n"
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"created_at": "2018-05-14T11:46:52Z",
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"body": "Maybe the NLOGO directory is a new PDP-11 LOGO. It mentions SITS, which is the LOGO group PDP-11 timesharing system."
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"body": "@leighklotz message to comp.lang.logo is requried reading: \r\nhttps://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.logo/UqOvEkZsJEQ"
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"body": "Well, I was only about 12 at the time, but if I recall how things worked at the Logo lab:\r\nThere was a PDP 11 which ran a timesharing system which was based on the ITS system running on the PDP 10's upstairs at the AI Lab. Initially the Logo system had some kind of storage displays, I don't remember who the manufacturer was. It was on those that I believe I saw Dazzle Dart being played. It had previously so been implemented in the PDP10/PDP6 at the AI lab, and ran on the 340 DEC display.\r\nThen some students ported it to the LOGO system ( I believe). \r\n\r\nLater, I believe the LOGO lab got a copy of the Knight bitmap display system, but I don't think Dazzle Dart was implemented for it. \r\n\r\nThe 2500 was a standalone minicomputer designed by my father, Marvin Minsky. It was basically used as a standalone graphics machine, it had two displays, one was driven as display list processor to a vector display and the other implemented a terminal , with a character memory and programmable font memory. It didn't really have enough memory to act as a LOGO interpreter, so it was hooked either to the PDP 11 over a modem, or eventually packaged with an LSI 11 board as a standalone LOGO machine.\r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n"
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"created_at": "2018-05-14T14:28:50Z",
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"body": "Gee, Henry, I thought you were 14 at the time (or was this two years before the sign language course?). And yes, the 2500 is what I meant when I referred to the \"Logo 3400\" above. But apparently \r\n\r\nBut the \"storage display\" (ARDS or Tektronix) would correspond to my 1987 recollections in the old email. However, Dazzle Dart was not previously implemented on the PDP6 -- we tried to do a PDP6 version _after_ playing it on the PDP11, but were stymied due to lack of suitable controls. (I'm still trying to remember what the controls on the PDP11 version looked like -- I remember that it required both hands, considerable dexterity, and intense concentration, which is what made it a great game. But I just can't picture the exact controls anymore.)\r\n\r\nI didn't know that there was ever a TK TV system in the LOGO lab. The original TK TV was a shared-logic system that drove somewhere around 10 or 20 screens. The central controller was a PDP11 -- probably an 11/10 (weaker than the PDP11/45), connected to the AI Lab PDP10 (by some sort of fast interface -- TK would likely remember). I believe the PDP11 would draw characters on the screen, but each screen's bitmap could also be accessed directly from the PDP10. This was sometimes used to draw graphics (overlaid on the character display). The ITS scheduler would also draw a small \"run bar\" on the bottom of your screen when the time-sharing system scheduled your job.\r\n\r\nI always thought the TK TV was a one-off, so it's news to me if someone cloned it for the LOGO lab. (Was the LOGO lab on the 4th floor?) However, I'm pretty certain it was not there in the Dazzle Dart time frame."
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"body": "I remember there were some controls for Spacewar that were made from telephone patch panel springy toggle switches (like these) https://c8.alamy.com/comp/HRY9WN/closeup-of-a-vintage-bell-system-telephone-switchboard-with-plugs-HRY9WN.jpg\r\n\r\nThe Dazzle Dart controls were made from Microswitch mini toggle switches I think. I seem to recall some were momentary and maybe some were not. https://www.mouser.com/images/ckcomponents/lrg/7000_toggle_series_new_SPL.jpg\r\nThey were in metal project boxes I think, with a couple of switches and a push button maybe. \r\n\r\n"
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"body": "The controls were something like x motion, y motion, and rotate left and right, as well as a button to transfer the beam to the other player on the team ? \r\n"
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"body": "And a ''fire'' button of course."
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"created_at": "2018-05-14T14:51:14Z",
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"body": "The PDP6 Spacewar controls I remember well -- <a href=\"https://archive.org/stream/creativecomputing-1981-08/Creative_Computing_v07_n08_1981_August#page/n65/mode/1up\">Someone apparently did a sketch for Creative Computing Magazine </a>. And your description of the Dazzle Dart controls rings true to me."
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"body": "I read a bit about the LOGO group at MIT, and their various hardware and software generations. I don't have a clear picture yet, but apparently there were many display devices over the years.\r\n\r\nThe LOGO Knight displays were quite different from the AI PDP-10 Knight TV displays. The former were vector displays driven by display lists, i.e. much like the 2500. The latter were raster displays."
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"created_at": "2018-05-14T16:41:21Z",
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"body": "I heard from Eliot Moss that Alan Snyder implemented R in C for the PDP-10 family. There may or may not have been an earlier version. When Snyder graduated, Moss took over maintenance."
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"body": "Controls as per the source code. Eight bits per player, times four players. That was a problem for the PDP-6 port; there was a shortage of inputs.\r\n\r\n```\r\nRTURNF==1 ;BIT CODE FOR MRBOX\r\nLTURNF==2\r\nRSLIDF==4\r\nLSLIDF==10\r\nBKTRF==20\r\nFDTRF==40\r\nPASSF==100\r\nFIREF==200"
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T06:42:07Z",
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"body": "C library: #892 \r\nSTINKR: #891 "
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T07:02:40Z",
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"body": "I compiled these source files: STINKR, SSYM, SREAD, SLOAD, SJOB10, SJOB. I also had to add the library file C10JOB to resolve missing symbols.\r\n\r\nI linked the object files together and got a new TS STINKER. However, running it to link the files again results in an error:\r\n\r\n ILOPR; 3047>>-1 776620/ AOSGE 146230(11)\r\n"
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T07:04:57Z",
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"body": "The files come from a TOPS-20 port, so it's not unlikely there are some changes that are incompatible with ITS."
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T07:21:09Z",
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"body": "A video with, among other things, a flight simulator using a combination of a PDP-1 and a PDP-10.\r\n\r\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coHRMgXW0T0"
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T08:29:43Z",
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"body": "I looked at the schematics: https://stuff.offog.org/its/ten11/\r\n\r\nExcept for the ADRACK sheet, I don't see any complicated logic. There are a few 74xx ICs here and there."
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"body": "@eswenson1 I added these three files to lars/slave. Do you know if there's any Lisp code using the display functions?"
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T09:14:39Z",
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"body": "Also documented in INFO; LISPIO 4"
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T09:51:29Z",
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"body": "> The display slave consists of a set of LISP functions which are autoloaded in when disini is first called.\r\n\r\nI don't know how this autoloading works. Will it load L; SLAVE FASL, or should it be somewhere else?"
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T09:52:18Z",
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"body": "Looks like it should be LISP; SLAVE FASL."
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"body": "Some outstanding questions:\r\n\r\n- [ ] Where to put the GT40 binary for LD10?\r\n- [x] What is FDITS?\r\n- [x] How does it differ fromthe GT40 LD10?\r\n- [x] Who uses it?\r\n- [x] Where should the binary be?"
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"body": "\"GT40 Utility Programs and the LISP Display Slave\" \r\nhttps://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/its-archives/blob/master/ailab/AI_WP_059.pdf"
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T11:28:40Z",
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"body": "Ah, the working paper answers some questions: SYENG; FDITS > is .INSRTed when assembling the GT40 slave.\r\n\r\n"
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"body": "Here's what it says when run without JCL:\r\n\r\n```\r\nUsage is:\r\n\r\n :REDRCT <old gateway> <optional new gateway>\r\n\r\nGateways can be given as hostnames, or in decimal octet form (as in\r\n\"10.0.0.77\"). If the new gateway is omitted, REDRCT will simply pick a\r\nlikely-looking gateway from ITS's list of main gateways.\r\n\r\nREDRCT will ask for confirmation once after it interprets its command, to be\r\nsure it properly understood what you asked it to do. Then for each routing\r\ntable entry it finds that uses the old gateway, it will ask for confirmation\r\nbefore clobbering it with the new gateway.\r\n```\r\n\r\nLooks like it maps in system pages and rewrites tables in core."
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T13:26:54Z",
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"body": "Now that XXFILE seems to work, maybe it's time to revisit this. What do you say @eswenson1, would you oppose moving most of the build scripting from TCL to XXFILE?"
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"body": "Yes, we should. But I tried a couple of times to do this unsuccessfully. Can you get some build with input requested (like a Midas build that prompts) switched over and committed and I’ll copy for my stuff?\n\n-- Eric\n\n\n> On May 15, 2018, at 06:26, Lars Brinkhoff <notifications@github.com> wrote:\n> \n> Now that XXFILE seems to work, maybe it's time to revisit this. What do you say @eswenson1, would you oppose moving most of the build scripting from TCL to XXFILE?\n> \n> —\n> You are receiving this because you were mentioned.\n> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.\n> \n"
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"body": "@larsbrinkhoff how would I identify lisp code that uses this stuff? What would that code be doing that would identify itself?"
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"body": "I made a change so the characters aren't expected one by one, but rather in a complete string.\r\n\r\nAlso, it seems my version of expect doesn't handle `expect -timeout N {` well. I changed it to an explicit assigment to `timeout` instead."
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"body": "Hello again,\r\n\r\nIt would be good if you had time to check the new fix in #896. Thanks."
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"body": "I did some changes since Eric approved this, but since no one raised any objections, I'll merge this."
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"body": "Basically anything that makes calls to `(DIS...` I made the obvious checks already. I just asked in case you'd know already."
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"body": "The gains as I see it:\r\n- Build ITS programs from ITS, not a foreign scripting language.\r\n- Speed up the build. Having expect gently feed a command line to ITS takes a few seconds maybe?\r\n- Uniform scripting language, not split between x(x)files and expect."
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"body": "For these one-lines, does it really speed up the build? ITS has to spawn a STY for each invocation of XXFILE, right?"
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T17:56:24Z",
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"body": "I can't find any code that makes calls to any of the lisp functions mentioned in that AI Working Paper."
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T18:00:32Z",
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"body": "Right, using XXFILE is likely not much faster than expect. But for those one-lines, I think :XFILE can do the job, and I think that's faster."
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"body": "We don't have anything installed at the moment, but\r\n\r\n- SHRDLU makes a call to DISINI\r\n- LLOGO makes calls to DISINI, DISCOURSE, DISFLUSH, DISCREATE, etc...\r\n"
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"body": "Another version here: \r\nhttps://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/tree/master/files/shrdlu\r\n\r\nSeemingly, it can display on a 340. There's a call to DISINI, and calls to DISARR looks like they are 340 display lists. DISARR maybe is defined in LAP code."
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"created_at": "2018-05-15T18:17:11Z",
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"body": "Calls DISINI and many other documented 340/GT40 Lisp display functions. Probably wants load TURTLE and some other files."
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"created_at": "2018-05-16T05:19:42Z",
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"body": "Again, evidence that there wasn't a one-to-one mapping between frame buffers and TV displays. I received an email with this:\r\n\r\n> There was battle for screens, of course, as there were more KnightTV terminals than PDP-11 buffers."
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"created_at": "2018-05-16T06:10:19Z",
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"body": "The TV frame buffers were made out of Intel RAM chips. This doesn't sound like the primary PDP-11/10 memory (did it use core memory?)."
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"created_at": "2018-05-16T09:50:34Z",
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"body": "Split off:\r\n- games\r\n- networking"
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"created_at": "2018-05-16T09:51:26Z",
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"body": "I have a second stage in the works, on branch lars/stage2.\r\n\r\nIf the environment variable STAGE2 is set to yes, the build will pick up where BASICS left."
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"body": "Hello @DavidGriffith,\r\n\r\nI see you make some interactive fiction of your own. (I remember reading about Uninvited in a magazine back in the day.) Maybe you'd like to make one about Tech Square 9th floor and its surroundings. It'd be another unauthorized adaptation. :-)"
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"created_at": "2018-05-16T20:18:30Z",
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"body": "Got a binary for AI ITS 724 from 1972:\r\n\r\nhttps://github.com/PDP-10/its-vault/blob/master/files/backup/%40.its"
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"body": "I have the scanned XGP listing converted to text. It's on the lars/dazzle branch.\r\n\r\nAssembling it works fine. The PDP-6 version needs definitions for APR, PI, and DIS, but we're used to that. Maybe add a switch to MIDAS to predefine those?\r\n\r\nHowever, it will not run due to the missing IMX device."
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"body": "Here's an RT-11 terp: http://ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archiveXinfocomXinterpretersXzemu.html\r\n\r\nThere should be some 8-inch RT-11 floppies floating around of the earliest of Infocom's games. The trick there is that the terp on the floppy would likely be able to do no more than V3 games. Zemu can do up to V5. It might do up to V8, but I'm not sure.\r\n\r\nI can make a simulation of the 9th floor, but I'll need someone who knows the place better to add decorations."
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"body": "Some random samples:\r\n\r\nDAZZLE+26/ 170127 ;LDFPS # 0 \r\nMVTURN/ 172465 ;LDF ANGM(M),FA \r\nMRANG/ 174004 ;STF FA,FE \r\nMRTUUP+4/ 171067 ;MULF REFSIZ,FA \r\nMTURT/ 172067 ;ADDF TURNSP,FA "
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"body": "Maybe it's in 11SIM 434.\r\n\r\nThe version we currently have is 11SIM 426, timestamped 1984-07-08. Later versions (430-434) have earlier timestamps (1979-06-13 - 1981-10-24), so maybe the 426 is a copy with a new timestamp."
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"created_at": "2018-05-17T06:33:18Z",
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"body": "> I can make a simulation of the 9th floor, but I'll need someone who knows the place better to add decorations.\r\n\r\nGreat! There's a map of the 9th floor here: \r\nhttp://gunkies.org/w/images/2/29/9th_floor_techsquare.png\r\n\r\n5th floor: http://images.slideplayer.com/32/9976732/slides/slide_25.jpg\r\n\r\nThere's also a short story about the basement. I'll contact the author about permission to use it."
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"created_at": "2018-05-17T06:34:47Z",
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"body": "Can you run RT-11 on a 11/20 or a 11/45? 11SIM can do disk devices etc."
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"created_at": "2018-05-17T08:26:22Z",
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"body": "NE43 floor plans: \r\nhttp://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/vtour/floor0.html"
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"body": "I added disassembly of FP11 instructions on the lars/11sim branch."
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"body": "The closing END directive doesn't specify a starting address.\r\n\r\nAnyway the start is at GO. Early on, the program does CONOs to devices 420 and 460. The former could be the Spacewar consoles. But 460 is the KA IMP interface, so that seems strange."
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"body": "It runs until GO+33, where there's a CONO PI which hangs."
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"body": "Console commands:\r\n- C - \"SENS OF DISP\"\r\n- D - Go to DDT\r\n- F - Go fly\r\n- I - Restart\r\n- ^I - Go to IDL1, resets PDL\r\n- L - Flush all I/O\r\n- P - Calibrate pots\r\n- T - Test\r\n- X - Trace scope\r\n- Z - Clear number buffer\r\n- 0-9 - Input number\r\n"
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"created_at": "2018-05-17T13:51:36Z",
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"body": "It hangs spinning on the CONSO IMX in XPT1."
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"body": "In the binary, we have the salvager at 200000.\r\n\r\nAt 745136 there's a huge block of randomish data all the way to 777700 (where the DSKDMP boostrap usually is). NTSDDT would usually be at 774000, if I remember correctly. Maybe a symbol table in there? Near the end seems to be a file directory."
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"body": "There's a list of devices:\r\n\r\nLPT, DSK, TTY, NUL, USR, NVD, SYS, STY, JOB, BOJ, PLT, IPL, IMX, PTP, OMX, PTR, DIS, IDS, CLU, CLO, CLI, CLA, COM, COD, TVC, ERR, TPL, TAB, SPY, COR, TY, T, UT, ST, S, DK, P, PK, MT.\r\n"
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"body": "@aap we talked about a mystery 32K configuration. HW memo # 3 talks about three memories: a moby memory, a DEC 16K, and an Ampex 16K."
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"created_at": "2018-05-17T20:47:29Z",
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"body": "After comparing VERSA 211 and INFO; XGP, there are a number of XGP commands that VERSA either doesn't implement fully (e.g. line spacing, underlining) or doesn't implement at all (margins, vector drawing). I've tried adding support for margins and correct line feed behaviour, which makes TJ6 output look much better.\r\n\r\nDo we have any high-quality (ideally 600 DPI) scans of real XGP output? @larsbrinkhoff, you mentioned you had scans of an XGP listing of Dazzle Dart recently... but it would also be nice to have something that uses underlining and multiple font sizes, to compare spacing against."
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"body": "\"printing\" would be another reasonable category - FED, TJ6, VERSA for now, and XD, GLPSPL etc. in the future."
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"created_at": "2018-05-17T21:09:52Z",
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"body": "Excellent! From a quick look, that's definitely the compiler; it will need some of the Muddle library (e.g. USE) but at least some of that is in the MIM source tree."
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"created_at": "2018-05-17T21:17:20Z",
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"body": "How about putting all the backwards-compatibility definitions in an .INSRT-able file (something like SYSENG; ODEFS >)?"
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"created_at": "2018-05-17T21:35:53Z",
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"body": "The BLISS source for Scribe [is on SAILDART](https://www.saildart.org/[SCR,SYS]), although I imagine getting permission to redistribute it would be difficult..."
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"body": "> Do we have any high-quality (ideally 600 DPI) scans of real XGP output?\r\n\r\nThe book about the Muddle programming language says:\r\n\r\n> This document was prepared using the PUB system (originally from the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory) and printed on the Xerox Graphics Printer of the M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Laboratory."
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"created_at": "2018-05-18T01:03:03Z",
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"body": "I have real XGP output -- the zork sources printed out from circa 1980. One could scan them in at any resolution. But what good are scans of XGP output?"
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"body": "Right, the Dazzle Dart scan is on the lars/dazzle branch. Maybe it's output from \"@\"?\r\n\r\nProbably many AI memos were printed on the XGP.\r\n\r\nI beleve the XGP had a resolution of about 200 DPI."
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"body": "I think I read somewhere the first version of Scribe was written as PUB macros.\r\n\r\nI asked Brian Reid about the legal status. I believe he sold the rights to a company, which is long defunct. For what it's worth, Brian has nothing against redistribution."
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"body": "Sounds good."
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"created_at": "2018-05-18T05:34:01Z",
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"body": "I believe GT40 is selected at run time from the call to DISINI. So 10SLAV can be assembled with support for both displays."
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"created_at": "2018-05-18T05:48:38Z",
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"body": "@kaleberg is interested in doing a remake."
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"created_at": "2018-05-18T07:34:31Z",
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"body": "Maybe MLIFE?\r\n\r\nhttp://projects.csail.mit.edu/video/history/aifilms/56-life.mp4"
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"body": "From a video called [Mathlab Printers](http://akron.csail.mit.edu/videoarchive/history/aifilms/screen-85) \r\n![mit-printer](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/775050/40226944-6acc6e1a-5a8d-11e8-8a73-cc5376259ab6.png)\r\n\r\nI was hoping it would be the XGP, but the printout doesn't seem very ... graphical."
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"body": "The title says \"BIG 144 710928\", so that gives us a date. I don't see anything other than BIG 160 anywhere. Timestamps for BIG 160 go back to 1972-12-21."
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"body": "BIG (#901) can be assembled for 16 or 32 K."
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"created_at": "2018-05-18T18:59:13Z",
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"body": "MUSRUN seems to be made to run in PDP-6 timesharing, and use PDP-10 as an auxilliary processor."
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"body": "PDP10 is the default MUSRUN directory for loading files. There's a lot of Bach."
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"created_at": "2018-05-18T19:59:55Z",
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"body": ".INFO.; ARDS INFO\r\n"
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"created_at": "2018-05-19T00:28:46Z",
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"author_association": "CONTRIBUTOR",
"body": "Here's what it looks like - you need to zoom out a bit (^F*) to see the whole thing.\r\n\r\n![harscn 4 0 pbm](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/436317/40262941-d9e6f9c0-5b03-11e8-8bc5-0f0bdf5b8daa.png)\r\n![harscn 6 0 pbm](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/436317/40262943-e200b0ba-5b03-11e8-8cae-f3e5376eedbe.png)\r\n"
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"body": "Great!"
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"body": "^F * - zoom out.\r\n\r\n@atsampson, please add to this if you figure out some useful commands."
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"body": "Bill Gosper and someone else typing at terminals.\r\n\r\n![](http://media.csail.mit.edu/_data/i/upload/2016/02/24/20160224163900-0240e99f-me.jpg)"
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"body": "Did a quick browsing. I do recognize some of the pictures."
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"created_at": "2018-05-19T10:37:12Z",
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"author_association": "CONTRIBUTOR",
"body": "^F W - write a plot file for SCNV to read."
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"body": "Logo memo 25 = [AI memo 361](ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-361.pdf) describes a raster graphics system that is being implemented for the PDP-11/45. Tom Knight designed the black and white system, and Ron Lebel designed the color system (four bits per pixel).\r\n\r\nEDIT: Fixed typo; it's Ron, not Rob."
}
]
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