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"created_at": "2017-01-18T14:07:48Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-18T14:07:48Z",
"body": "Depends on #436."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T16:33:45Z",
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"body": "Still holding on, right? "
},
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T18:36:38Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-18T18:36:38Z",
"body": "It should be done now. I wanted to use FORMAT ~< ~>, so I had to bring in LISP; FORMAT BRACK."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T19:26:13Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-18T19:26:13Z",
"body": "SYSTEM; IOELEV and SYSTEM; TV mention both CARPET and RUG."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T19:36:11Z",
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"body": "SYSTEM; CONFIG > says:\r\n\r\n ; The following AI-KA stuff is broken since the 10-11 interface doesn't work,\r\n ; but is retained in case it gets fixed.\r\n DEFOPT TEN11P==0 ; Rubin 10-11 interface\r\n IFN TEN11P,[\r\n DEFOPT XGP==1 ; Has XGP\r\n DEFOPT CHAOSP==1 ; Has CHAOS net\r\n DEFOPT MYCHAD==2026 ; CHAOS net address\r\n DEFOPT NINDX==50. ; Number of Chaosnet indices\r\n DEFOPT T11CHP==1 ; CHAOS net goes through TEN-11 interface\r\n DEFOPT CH11NM==7 ; # of 10-11 PDP11 handling CHAOS net.\r\n DEFOPT TT11NM==0 ; # of 10-11 PDP11 that handles TV TTYs.\r\n DEFOPT N11TYS==16. ; # PDP11 TV TTYS\r\n DEFOPT MXVBN==40 ; Max video bfr # for assignment purposes.\r\n ] ;TEN11P ; These actually correspond to video switch inputs.\r\n"
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T19:38:50Z",
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"body": "SYSTEM; IOELEV 432 is the source for the code running in the PDP-11."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T20:10:21Z",
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"body": "@rcornwell says his KA10 emulator is ready for initial testing with standalone utilities. I guess MAGDMP would be a good first test."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T20:16:26Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-18T20:16:35Z",
"body": "I believe MAGDMP can trace its roots way back to the early PDP-6 period. See e.g. AM memo 83, \"Use of MACDMP\" (note slightly different name)."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T20:18:36Z",
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"body": "User manual:\r\n\r\n ;MAGDMP filenames are:\r\n ; name1 <space> name2 <space> version_number\r\n ; name1 <space> name2\r\n ; version_number defaults to the equivalent of \">\"\r\n ; name2\r\n ; name1 defaults to \"@\"\r\n ;\r\n ;MAGDMP commands are:\r\n ; <filename> <cr>\r\n ; clear core, load and start program\r\n ; L^[ <filename> <cr>\r\n ; clear core, load program, leave control in MAGDMP\r\n ; M^[ <filename> <cr>\r\n ; load program without clearing core (\"merge\"), leave control in MACDMP\r\n ; T^[ <filename> <cr>\r\n ; clear core except DDT, load program, give symbol table\r\n ; to DDT, and start DDT. 777400^[G returns to MAGDMP\r\n ; F^[\r\n ; list directory (if you have a 340, the directory\r\n ; is displayed on the 340 and this command doesn't exist.\r\n ; ^[\r\n ; get the directory off the tape again\r\n ; D^[ <filename> <cr>\r\n ; dump all non-zero core onto tape and give it the specified name\r\n ; G^[\r\n ; start program at its starting address\r\n ; The nnn^[ command of DSKDMP does not work in MAGDMP.\r\n"
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"body": "Oh cool. This looks promising. I wonder how all of tech square's 11s were mapped into the 10's address space. The ITS pager only seems to be able to address 512kw physical memory....but Greenblatt said it looked like a memory to the 10...hm..."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T21:07:04Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-18T21:07:21Z",
"body": "I think MACDMP is just project MAC's alternative to DEC's DECDMP, i.e. working with DECtape. MAGDMP otoh obviously works with magtapes. I doubt the formats are very similar."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T21:13:03Z",
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"body": "SYSEN2; MAGFRM 17, label MCHNTB."
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"body": "Thanks, I wasn't aware of DECDMP.\r\n\r\nThe MACDMP format is descibed in https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/its-archives/blob/master/ailab/AIM-82.pdf."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T21:24:16Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-19T10:20:06Z",
"body": "We have MACDMP as well, only it's called 10DMP now. It could indicate having been ported from the 6 to the 10. Also, there are two versions: one for 16Kword memory, and another for a full moby."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T21:25:50Z",
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"body": "Then there's a TENDMP which can be assembled for both DECtape and magtape."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T21:31:27Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-18T21:31:27Z",
"body": "SYSENG; 11BOOT 23\r\n\r\n TITLE 11BOOT - BOOT I/O 11 ON KL10\r\n ;LOADS DSK:KLRUG BIN AND DSK:IOELEV BIN, GIVES SYMBOLS TO RUG, AND\r\n ;MAKES DSK:@ BOOT11 WHICH IS TO BE PUT ON THE MAGDMP TAPE.\r\n"
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T21:43:03Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-18T21:43:03Z",
"body": "This is a great idea. Eventually we should centralize.\n\n-- Eric\n\n\n> On Jan 18, 2017, at 13:13, Lars Brinkhoff <notifications@github.com> wrote:\n> \n> SYSEN2; MAGFRM 17, label MCHNTB.\n> \n> —\n> You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.\n> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.\n> \n"
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T22:07:10Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-18T22:07:10Z",
"body": "SYSEN1; PWORD >, label bltspc.\r\n\r\nSYSEN1; DDT >, label KEXIST.\r\n\r\nSYSEN1; SENDER >, labels Create and SC4.\r\n\r\nSYSEN2; FRETTY >, label GO.\r\n\r\nSYSEN2; FIND >, label ITSTBL.\r\n\r\nSYSEN2; DIRED >, label ACT2.\r\n\r\nSYSENG; DIRDEV >, label OPEN10.\r\n\r\nSYSENG; DEMAIL >, label Begin.\r\n\r\nSYSNET; TELSER >, label CHTELE. <--- This one is especially funny!\r\n\r\nSYSNET; SENDS >, label gotusr.\r\n\r\nSYSEN1; NETIME >, label hosts.\r\n\r\nINQUIR; INQUPD >, label NEWMAC.\r\n\r\nSYSENG; RAYGUN >, label MCHNTB."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T22:14:38Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-18T22:14:38Z",
"body": "SYSENG; MODEMS >, label mchtab.\r\n\r\nSYSENG; @DEV >, label machtb.\r\n\r\nBAWDEN; 11LOAD >, label ackrfc.\r\n"
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T22:21:55Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-18T22:21:55Z",
"body": "SYSNET; COMSAT >, labels: bughst, domgat, and tcpgat. Currently, binary is patched rather than source modified."
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"created_at": "2017-01-18T22:36:18Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-18T22:36:18Z",
"body": "SYSENG; DUMP >, macro MCOND.\r\n\r\nSYSEN2; FUMP >, macro MCOND.\r\n\r\nSYSTEM; CONFIG >, macro MCOND.\r\n\r\nSYSTEM; TTYTYP >, macro MCONDX.\r\n\r\nSYSTEM; IOELEV >, macro MCONDX.\r\n\r\nSYSTEM; ITS >, macro MCOND.\r\n\r\nSYSENG; LUSER >, macro MACTAB, label ITSTAB.\r\n\r\nSYSTEM; SALV >, symbol MCHN.\r\n\r\nKSHACK; NSALV >, symbol MCHN."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T06:23:27Z",
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"body": "Ok. Will do."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T06:59:59Z",
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"body": "Also moved all the other FASL files from src/comlap to bin/comlap."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T07:10:30Z",
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"body": "I think you also need to add comlap to BIN in the Makefile."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T07:36:13Z",
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"body": "Indeed. Done."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T09:26:07Z",
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"body": "A map: \r\n![](https://wildfireds.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/dungeon.jpg)"
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T10:06:15Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-19T10:08:07Z",
"body": "Apparently, to get at all issues, you have to use the GitHub internal repository ID, e.g. like this:\r\n\r\nhttps://api.github.com/repositories/71775220/issues?state=all&per_page=100&page=5\r\n\r\nOr do it properly by looking at `Link:` in the HTTP response."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T10:25:15Z",
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"body": "@rcornwell These are now to be included in the ITS build."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T11:21:17Z",
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"body": "I'm not yet sure how to build MAGDMP. Here are the options:\r\n- Paper tape? This outputs MAGDMP as a PDP-10 RIM program.\r\n- KL10? No, we don't need that, at least not for now.\r\n- TM10A or TM10B?\r\n- 340 display? No, not now."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T12:24:46Z",
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"body": "I think RIM10 format will be good, given that the primar target is a KA10 emulator."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T13:00:05Z",
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"body": "Maybe to run ZORK from the Panda distribution... oh the irony!"
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T13:14:09Z",
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"body": "RG is already on GitHub since 2012. I have sent an invitation."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T13:18:32Z",
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"body": "Ok. The KA10 sim supports readin mode on the TMA/TMB tape interface. On TOPS10 I use BOOTM.REL as the boot block. RIM mode would probably also work since that is basically what readin mode is. The first word has a address/word count and data is placed there. \r\n\r\nI believe booting via Paper tape is also supported, however I have not tried it. \r\n\r\nKA10 sim supports readin of rim10, .SAV, and .EXE files. It is basically the same code as Bob's KS10 for simH. "
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T13:26:56Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-19T13:26:56Z",
"body": "I'm trying to figure out how, exactly, to create a file which the emulator will accept.\r\n\r\nRight now, I'm looking at how the LOAD command reads a RIM file. Apparently, the load_rim function builds 36-bit words from 6 octets read from the file. And the octets has to have the 0200 bit set. Ok, I can do that."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T13:36:05Z",
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"body": "That's paper tape format. Paper tape works in ascii and binary mode. In ascii mode the lower 7 bits are transferred, in binary mode 6 octets which must have b10 in the upper two bits are combined into one 36 bit word."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T14:14:02Z",
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"body": "Thanks, after converting to paper tape binary format, the emulator accepts that layer of the file. Next, I had to hack the emulator to accept the peculiarities of the ITS RIM format.\r\n\r\nNow, it loads the file to 777200, and in the end there's a JRST 777200. Good. But \"go\" does nothing. I was hoping for a MAGDMP prompt."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T14:22:29Z",
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"body": "What does instruction history show? Also try go 777200.\r\n\r\nWhat is the difference between the ITS RIM format and RIM10?"
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T14:36:15Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-19T14:38:47Z",
"body": "Nope. Location 7772000 is zero.\r\n\r\n> What is the difference between the ITS RIM format and RIM10?\r\n\r\n- The checksum calculation is different; there is a additional ROT.\r\n- The very first block doesn't have a checksum.\r\n- The block header word has the address in the right half, not minus one.\r\n\r\nIn my fork, there's a magdmp.rim you can examine."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T14:43:00Z",
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"body": "Ok, more fixes.\r\n\r\nNow the CPU goes to 777200, which is a CONO APR,635550. But single-stepping the CPU never proceeds from there. It's stuck at that location."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T16:23:49Z",
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"body": "It looks like MAGFRM will create a readin tape (just not for MC), The tape looks like it has a boot loader in it. You should be able to just attach this tape and type \"Boot mt0\". The boot loader will read in the first record into memory at the correct location, then transfer to it. If MAGFRM does not write the boot loader to a separate record you might have to fix this."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T18:10:29Z",
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"body": "Wow, I didn't dare hope it would have that capability. I'll certainly try to use it for booting.\r\n\r\nNext would be to try building SALV to make a disk structure, and DSKDMP."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T18:11:54Z",
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"body": "CC @rcornwell."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T18:15:41Z",
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"body": "The plan of attack would be something like:\r\n\r\n1. Use MAGDMP and MAGFRM to get a file system on magtape. Try to run a few standalone programs.\r\n2. Try to build the old SALV to make a file structure on a disk. Expect to debug the disk emulation and/or controller code.\r\n3. Build KA version of DSKDMP and exec DDT to be able to load and run a monitor.\r\n4. Build a KA monitor.\r\n5. Profit!"
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T18:31:16Z",
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"body": "Sounds like a good plan of attack. If you find bugs in my simulator post an issue on my sim. If I have time tonight I will try and fix the bug I introduced last night adding TLB and starting to add ITS pager support. Otherwise it will probably have to wait until the weekend. Biggest problem I can see is getting all the patches to support the 1 proceed and other ITS specific changes to the KA. The paging is not much different then than the KI paging."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T20:13:19Z",
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"body": "This is a good read: \r\nhttps://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/its-archives/blob/master/ailab/AI_WP_227.pdf\r\n\r\nThank you @cstacy."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T20:22:31Z",
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"body": "From AI WP 227:\r\n\r\n> Before the TV system can be reloaded, it must be running. To start the TV-11 running, Halt it, Load Address 0 with 777, and Start the machine at 0. Run the STUFF program under ITS."
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"created_at": "2017-01-19T20:25:07Z",
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"body": "The Knight TV PDP-11 was loaded from ITS by running the STUFF program, according to AI WP 227."
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"created_at": "2017-01-20T10:23:29Z",
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"body": "I ran MAGFRM and created a tape with a MAGDMP on it. ka10 attempts to boot from it, but the hardware readin deposits the loader in memory locations 0-17. This doesn't work, because the KA10 fetches instructions from the ACs."
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"created_at": "2017-01-20T10:33:51Z",
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"body": "I tried to fix this in two ways:\r\n- Deposit into fast memory.\r\n- Make KA10 fetch from main memory.\r\n\r\nThe result was the same: the loader starts running, but loops endlessly waiting for CONSO 344,1 to signal that the TM10 is ready to go."
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"created_at": "2017-01-20T10:58:38Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-20T11:04:46Z",
"body": "@rcornwell I believe there's a bug in the implementation of CONSO.\r\n\r\n dev_tab[d](CONI|(d<<2), &AR);\r\n\r\nCONSI should probably be CONSO, right?"
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"created_at": "2017-01-20T13:25:19Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-20T13:25:19Z",
"body": "I don't believe there is any bug in CONSO. The TMA controller passes Dec diags, except for some parity issues which can't be simulated on the sim. I will re-test it this weekend. \r\n\r\n dev_tab[d](CONI|(d<<2), &AR); \r\n\r\n this is correct, CONSZ and CONSO are both CONI as far as the hardware is concerned. Both do a mask of the CONI word, CONSZ skips if all bits are zero, CONSO skips if any bits are one.\r\n\r\n The PDP10 hardware only implements DATAI, DATAO, CONI, CONO. \r\n\r\n Please enable MT debugging I suggest (CONI;CONO;DATAIO;CMD;DETAIL) and see what that shows. CONSO 344,1 is checking for a data request. Perhaps the boot chunk is not in it's own record. If this is the case, I will have to make changes to the sim to support it."
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"created_at": "2017-01-20T18:42:53Z",
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"body": "Oh, you're right. I'm a bit rusty on the I/O instructions."
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"created_at": "2017-01-21T12:50:59Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-21T12:50:59Z",
"body": "Thank you. For the tapeio.c issue, can you please submit pull requests to the PDP-10/itstar and brouhaha/tapeutils repositories?"
},
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"created_at": "2017-01-21T12:51:50Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-21T12:51:50Z",
"body": "Does FreeBSD have $PWD defined in the shell?"
},
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"created_at": "2017-01-21T14:32:46Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-21T14:38:26Z",
"body": "Yes, and make actually works, only gmake doesn't. And (my age old) raspbian has the same problem.\r\n\r\nOne more thing: For the slow ass raspi (first model B) I had to increase the timeout in build.tcl. I changed it to 500 and it worked, before that it was aborting while building LISP somewhere."
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"created_at": "2017-01-21T16:37:39Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-21T16:37:39Z",
"body": "Pull requests done. Still didn't fix sources.tape. I hope you can figure this out."
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"created_at": "2017-01-21T18:12:26Z",
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"body": "I get the exact same failure using your broken_source.tape."
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"created_at": "2017-01-21T18:22:51Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-21T18:22:51Z",
"body": "The problem is that SYSEN1; SYSTEM 999999 is a link, and for some reason, it's the first item in the SYSEN1 directory that DUMP is trying to restore.\r\n\r\nThere is a bug in DUMP 443, which is what we're using to extract the sources.tape. In that version, creating a link doesn't create the containing directory.\r\n\r\nI've fixed the bug in DUMP 444. We should use that to replace the version in the minsys tape."
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"created_at": "2017-01-21T18:36:49Z",
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"body": "Problem reported in #447."
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"created_at": "2017-01-21T19:05:11Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-21T19:05:11Z",
"body": "Alternatively I think itstar should be changed perhaps not to produce this format in the first place, just for compatibility with the rest of the world (however small)."
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"created_at": "2017-01-21T20:42:40Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-21T20:43:25Z",
"body": "@philbudne Has Stanford CCRMA listed as a Foonly F4 running WAITS.\r\n\r\nhttp://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/10periphs"
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"created_at": "2017-01-21T21:20:05Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-21T21:20:05Z",
"body": "Actually, they had an F2 first, and later upgraded it to an F4. \r\nhttps://ccrma.stanford.edu/~aj/archives/docs/all/646.pdf"
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T08:29:43Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-22T08:31:08Z",
"body": "Have you come across any code for formatting DECtapes? Formatting is one thing in my emulation that I haven't implemented yet and I have some trouble imagining how a program would even do it. Having some code would certainly help me."
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T12:33:20Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-22T12:33:20Z",
"body": "Is this to my comment here? https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/449#issuecomment-274316957 Because I don't think this is what I'm looking for."
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T14:04:00Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-22T14:04:00Z",
"body": "No, I just searched for \"decnet\", and this showed up.\r\n\r\nIt's not that everything I make an issue for is urgently needed."
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T14:05:47Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-22T14:05:47Z",
"body": "I have now made an extensive search for \"dectape\", and nothing obvious turned up. Maybe it's in a MACDMP subroutine."
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T14:12:36Z",
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"body": "By the way, do you mean some low-level formatting, or initializing a tape with a MACDMP format?"
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T14:58:26Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-22T14:58:26Z",
"body": "10D16K is just 10DMP with one line changed.\r\n\r\nTENDMP is 10DMP with many edits and additions."
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T16:26:22Z",
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"body": "Worth looking is at the MIT CADR simulator by Brad Parker for a user space Chaosnet (has FILE, and other sutff) which is used as a remote file system for the simulator."
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T16:28:41Z",
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"body": "There is the option of hooking doing Chaosnet to TCP/IP. How well that ever worked, I do not know. Brad Parkers MIT CADR simulator includes a user-space chaosnet hack that might be worth looking into."
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T17:34:39Z",
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"body": "Doesn't Björn Victor have a Chaosnet over UDP implementation for KLH10? I believe it allows two or more ITS systems on the internet to use Chaosnet to talk to one another."
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T17:48:04Z",
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"body": "@bictorv can probobly elaborate on that. :-)"
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T18:46:19Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-22T18:50:07Z",
"body": "I mean the low level formatting; writing the timing and marking tracks. I talked to Greenblatt and he said they didn't have anything of that sort...maybe programs supplied by DEC, but I'm not too familiar with DEC software. One other thing that I find strange is that both @rcornwell and Greenblatt said DECtape formats for different architectures were rather compatible. I can't imagine how that would work as the 36 bit format has an additional mark code (25, Block Space) that the 18 bit and 12 bit formats (which are otherwise identical) don't. And this code is quite important for reading too...not only used to extend the block number to 36 bits but also used to shift a register to time some actions."
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T19:48:20Z",
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"body": "Over all, I don't see a lot of references to DECtape at all in ITS material."
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"created_at": "2017-01-22T20:06:14Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-22T20:06:14Z",
"body": "@rcornwell @dabridgham This may be helpful to you."
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"created_at": "2017-01-23T07:12:34Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-23T07:12:34Z",
"body": "He does, and he has suggested creating a network of ITS machines."
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"created_at": "2017-01-23T07:55:19Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-23T11:34:31Z",
"body": "The Chaos variants should be better documented. My Chaos-over-UDP introduces a new protocol which essentially just wraps a Chaos packet in a UDP header, and sends it using configured mappings between Chaos and IP addresses. We had a network with, I think, four ITS hosts at one point (mine, Craig Lennox, and possibly Paul Svensson?). Brads Chaos-over-unix-sockets is for communicating between the CADR emulator and unix \"servers\" such as FILE, TIME etc, but only point-to-point I think. There is also Chaos-over-Ethernet which is a standard, used e.g. by more modern Lisp machines (original Chaosnet was 2 Mb/s). I once set up a bridge program between the three, so ITS could communicate with both the CADR emulator and a real Symbolics machine. Great fun!\r\n\r\nFor ITS, I would propose my Chaos-over-UDP using CH11. CH11 could of course be extended to use the other variants above, but with more work. See http://its.victor.se/wiki/ch11 for more info about CH11.\r\n\r\nUP is running CH11, so if you have a machine you want to join, let me know!"
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"created_at": "2017-01-23T18:49:32Z",
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"body": "Yes, indeed. Thanks for the mention."
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"created_at": "2017-01-23T19:06:31Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-23T19:06:31Z",
"body": "The submodules are now updated with your changes. Thanks!"
},
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"created_at": "2017-01-23T20:15:06Z",
"updated_at": "2017-01-23T20:18:46Z",
"body": "David Moon, 14 Mar 1985, on a dark period in ITS history:\r\n> With the recent episode of vandalism and destruction, there is only one running ITS machine in the world\r\n\r\nThat would be the KL MC, after the KAs had been shut down, and before the KS machines had came online.\r\n\r\n(Later in the same message: \"A perhaps little-known fact is that Symbolics still runs TENEX, on a Foonly F-2.\" Light bulb goes on... so that's why there are SCRC tapes with Foonex.)"
}
]
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